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June 20, 2007

Why Do You Hate Michael Moore?

I was listening to him on Stern yesterday talking about his new movie, SiCKO, where he takes a bunch of relief workers from 911 that can't get health care to Cuba whereupon they are provided with the proper treatment for their injuries. I'm blown away by the overwhelming amout of disdain that people have for this guy. There seems to be a common sentiment leaning towards him being "unamerican." I don't get it. I've seen three of his documentaries and the messages are as follows... 1. Mexican outsourcing is bad for the community in which a corporation resides. 2. We need to do something about gun control. 3. This effin war doesn't make any sense/soldiers are mistreated. I can see how there would be a contingent that would disagree with Moore on these topics but unamerican? Really? I believe the underlying message in SiCKO is that our healthcare system sucks. I can probably get behind that. Unless of course, I just flat out don't like Michael Moore. Do you?

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maybe people only like an overweight sloppy white guy if he is on Saturday Night Live and dies an early death from substance abuse.

seriously, I have a pinko commie liberal queer friend who agrees with Moore's political stances but was turned off by how "disrespectful" Moore was to Charlton Heston in Bowling for Columbine. I dont get it. He's one of my favorite non-tan men.

My problem with him is that, while his message is often a good one, he is overbearing to the point of Bill O'Reilly in making it. It tends to erode the credibility of the message. That plus he looks and sounds like Rob Reiner.

I have a pinko commie liberal queer friend who agrees with Moore's political stances but was turned off by how "disrespectful" Moore was to Charlton Heston in Bowling for Columbine.

He did make Heston look like the anti-christ in that movie but I loved that scene. Thought it was quite powerful.

"he is overbearing to the point of Bill O'Reilly in making it. It tends to erode the credibility of the message"

you mean like Gore in Inconvenient Truth? Kidding, sort of...

Americans for the most part are dumb...Moore just tries to hammer the idea home. Honestly, most of the shit Moore is talking about just seems so obvious and needs telling, but the information just isn't out there because most media outlets don't investigate or reveal anything, they just run the same boring stories that the government wants them to run. In retrospect, the stuff Moore tells us almost seems ludicrous, how can this shit happen in a world where politicians we elected are supposed to be looking out for us. He gets a bad rap because the people he makes look bad are louder than the rest of us apathetic americans.

While I think Moore does bring forth some valid points, the way in which he does it is like waking somebody up with dynamite. It gets people's attention but he does go way over the top. I don't agree with all of his views, but you have to give him credit for getting people thinking and talking about political issues.

TMan, what Moore did to Heston was not powerful, it was cruel. Heston has been living with Alzheimer's for years and Moore used it to his benefit. Heston looked like an idiot because he is ill and Moore made himself look like an asshole.

While I haven't seen any of his movies, Moore seems to point out other people's flaws while using less than ethical (or illegal) methods to do it. Same reason I hate Al Gore. They think rules don't apply to them, but they should apply to everyone else.

Essentially your liberal ass-clown douchebag.

TMan, what Moore did to Heston was not powerful, it was cruel. Heston has been living with Alzheimer's for years and Moore used it to his benefit. Heston looked like an idiot because he is ill and Moore made himself look like an asshole.

That was me, actually. I thought the scene was powerful. Leaving the picture of the girl who got shot in kindegarten on his step stirred up some emotion. I had no idea Heston had Alzheimers. If that's the case, perhaps he should stop leading NRA rallies.

sorry, last paragraph should have been directed at Art Vandelay not TMan

He did resign from his position with the NRA in 2003.

Right but that interview was in what, 2000...2001?

There was a similar scene in Roger & Me. He interviewed a woman who was clearly mentally deficient and sold rabbit fur and meat to support herself in Flint after GM closed up shop. He grilled her about killing rabbits and she was unable to comprehend why anyone would have a problem with it. Sad the way he treated her, but powerful because your average city-dwelling professional gets squeamish when you start killing bunnies on camera.

Butler: "liberal ass-clown douchebag"? And the Bill O'Reilly's of the world would be what? People throw the word "liberal" around as if it were an insult. Just like people call Moore unAmerican. But questioning things, even obnoxiously, is quintessentally American. As is being a "liberal".

I don't believe Moore is unAmerican. I do, however, think he is a self-righteous, hyprocritical turd.

Sure, our healthcare system needs fixing. But suggesting Cuba's is superior? Gimme a fuckin' break. Castro's endorsement of Sicko tells you all you need to know. Well, that and all the Cuban people risking their lives to get out of that hellhole on anything that floats.

"needs fixing" goes to the top of my euphemism list today

And i think the point may be that Cuba is a hellhole and still has a better system than hours, particularly given the relative wealth and prosperity of the two nations

dont know why I topped hours instead of ours. must be focused on billing....

Michael Moore is an asshole.

But he's a smart asshole. He knows that his ability to be an asshole is a talent and he uses it to forward his agenda. Like Chris Hansen going on To Catch a Predator and being a smug dick to the people he catches? He's basically taking his personality flaws and making the most out of them.

With that said, the guy gets under people's skin, crosses line he shouldn't cross, makes people uncomfortable and, in that, draws attention to himself and his efforts that a dorky ass like himself would never get normally. That's lemons to lemonade right there.

And he makes documentaries that make very complicated issues sound simpler than they are, leaving the viewer asking "why can't things be better than they are?"

Honestly, there's nothing wrong with that. He's not presenting scientific studies or gripping insight to the inner machinations of the world. He's demanding tough answers to simple questions from people who should be able to give them. Like a real asshole.

90% of the people in the US have the BEST healthcare in the world (except for maybe France, but then 15% unemployment and your French).

Why do we equate "health-insurance" with "health-care"? Go to the emergency room on a Friday nite...I guarantee you 50% minimum of the dregs in there have no insurance. One night my face was blown up like a balloon with a tooth infection, so much so that I was waiting to have an IV of pain meds and anti-biotics pumped in me...I had waited nearly an hour. The couple in the horse-stall next to me (mind you, this was 11:30pm) were here for a pregnancy check-up. And they had a friend interpreting for them.

40million uninsured - (12-20million illegals) = 20-28million I care about. Which means that 260million people have GREAT health care. I don't get the problem.

90% of the people in the US have the BEST healthcare in the world (except for maybe France, but then 15% unemployment and your French).

Why do we equate "health-insurance" with "health-care"? Go to the emergency room on a Friday nite...I guarantee you 50% minimum of the dregs in there have no insurance. One night my face was blown up like a balloon with a tooth infection, so much so that I was waiting to have an IV of pain meds and anti-biotics pumped in me...I had waited nearly an hour. The couple in the horse-stall next to me (mind you, this was 11:30pm) were here for a pregnancy check-up. And they had a friend interpreting for them.

40million uninsured - (12-20million illegals) = 20-28million I care about. Which means that 260million people have GREAT health care. I don't get the problem.

...and everything i said in that post is immediately tossed in the shit-can because I'm a doofus who double-clicks...

"And i think the point may be that Cuba is a hellhole and still has a better system than hours, particularly given the relative wealth and prosperity of the two nations"

Better than ours? Only if you are a rich foreigner or a Cuban government official. But those particular facilities are not open to regular Cuban citizens. And the rat-traps that the average Cuban has to go to is never advertised by the Cuban gorvernment, nor are they shown in Sicko. Nor does Moore mention how the average Cuban has to buy sutures, aspirin, and antibiotics on the black market. And provide their own bedsheets and bedpans.

I dont know what Moore shows or doesnt show, I havent seen the film and am pretty sure most of you havent either. It could be that the Cuban comparison is only one aspect of it. If he captures what could be improved about our health care system then I think its worthwhile.

I cant argue stats but I know I personally know way too many people who work who are uninsured or underinsured, including a lot of self employed folks and independent contractors.

"If he captures what could be improved about our health care system then I think its worthwhile."

His argument is that government-regulated health insurance is the way to go. Not new ground. But hey, at least he'll make some money off it. Good old American capitalism -- the very concept he's been pissing all over his entire career.

These responses illustrate perfectly the problem with Moore. He comes off so ingratiating that most folks dismiss his point out of hand, without even bothering to see his film.

I'll hold up making any judgement until I do see the film. That said, the fact that the health care industry has been putting the full court press on Moore for a while now makes me more likely to think he might have some solid points going in.

What is an exanple of him pissing on good old American capitalism?

"What is an exanple of him pissing on good old American capitalism?"

Oh, I don't know. Let's start with when he said "Capitalism is a sin. This system is evil." Or Tv Nation, his show that routinely lampooned big corporations. Or, Roger & Me.

Or Tv Nation, his show that routinely lampooned big corporations. Or, Roger & Me.

I hate to be the ass that defends Michael Moore, but he doesn't attack capitalism as much as he attacks beauracracy. His issues tend to be with the ways big companies (and the gov't) do big business and lose sight of the small results and the small people they affect. Not so much with the concept of making money.

"I hate to be the ass that defends Michael Moore, but he doesn't attack capitalism as much as he attacks beauracracy. His issues tend to be with the ways big companies (and the gov't) do big business and lose sight of the small results and the small people they affect. Not so much with the concept of making money."

Isn't doing big business the same as making money (maximizing profit)? Yes, he does focus on how the small people and entire communities are affected by large companies' decisions to relocate, outsource, or shut down. But that is a direct result of companies trying to maximize profit -- which, as you know, is the goal of any private business. Second of all, a company can ultimately only exist (and profit) if there is a consumer -- meaning you can't fault businesses for restructuring if demand decreases (or if competition increases). Moore certainly understands this concept well in the subject matter he chooses (crusader for the "little guy") and the medium in which he delivers (documentaries are among the most profitable films due to low production costs). Finally, a job is not a right. You notice he didn't stick around and make a career at GM. Nobody wants to see someone struggle. It's a shitty thing. But how much of this is because of capitalistic practices and how much of this is education-related.

And to be clear, I'm not faulting Moore for making a profit. I'm answering Vandelay's question as to why I don't like the fat fucker. I think it's disgenuous of him to parade around like he's blue-collar and cares about everyone when he's clearly none of that. Or criticize companies for outsourcing when he himself outsources. To Butler's point, he wants rules to apply to others but not himself.

Isn't doing big business the same as making money (maximizing profit)?

No. Small businesses maximize their profits all the time without becoming big businesses. The issue with big business (which is not its fault) is that the larger a company becomes, the more beauracracy is required to sustain its infrastructure. and with that red tape comes a loss of small business perspective and focus on the customer.

Finally, a job is not a right.

I've always agreed with that. I think it's the responsibility of each person to maintain utility in a changing world. but Moore didn't assert that these people are entitled to their jobs. He asserted that they were entitled to consideration from the company because of the damage done to the entire community by the move. Whether or not they really are is entirely debatable, but that's his point. "Roger, what are these people supposed to do now?"

I think it's disgenuous of him to parade around like he's blue-collar and cares about everyone when he's clearly none of that.

And I'm not sure he does this. What I've seen on his show and in movies was him taking the concerns of an individual and asking the big company to account for their treatment of him. That's all he does. "What about this guy?" Yes, he makes money doing it, but he also forces national discussion. What's wrong with getting an insurance company to reconsider its policies in favor of the customer?

And don't get me wrong. As I said - I think the guy is a COMPLETE asshole. But I don't think he's ingenuine. He's not Jesus. He's the guy with the camera and the access asking the questions that everybody wants answered, but don't have a platform to ask.

He likes to pick on the individual though, and not the group. The problem with his "documentary" is that he picks out one company/individual in a group and puts the onus on them instead of the industry/society.

Why should x person get a bonus when y amount of people lose their jobs? Spotlight on x!

"The issue with big business (which is not its fault) is that the larger a company becomes, the more beauracracy is required to sustain its infrastructure. and with that red tape comes a loss of small business perspective and focus on the customer."

Fair enough.

"And I'm not sure he does this. What I've seen on his show and in movies was him taking the concerns of an individual and asking the big company to account for their treatment of him. That's all he does."

I disagree that's "all he does." He also goes around making claims he's from working-class Flint, MI (in "The Big One"), whereas he's actually from a nearby wealthy vanilla-ville. On top of that, he bragged in one his books about not owning a single stock, when in reality his tax claims showed he owned almost 400K in CORPORATE stocks/bonds (including Halliburton). And then there was the statement he made that he intended to only hire blacks. Once again, in reality, that was far from the case. Now, I can see the argument that this is intelligent marketing or strategic positioning (much like politicians do). And he chooses the concerns of an individual because it polarizes an issue that is much more complex than he makes it out to be.

"Yes, he makes money doing it, but he also forces national discussion. What's wrong with getting an insurance company to reconsider its policies in favor of the customer?"

But these issues aren't new. And people already discuss them -- politicians especially. What Moore does is create a series of publicity stunts in which he uses some crafty editing and some polarizing examples to generate buzz on old topics -- so people will buy his shit. He never really offers any real solutions other than slant his material to support his socialist agendae (like labor unions are good, government-run healthcare is the way to go, we need gun control to prevent violence, etc.).

"Isn't doing big business the same as making money (maximizing profit)?"

apparently its also making huge golden parachute payouts to ineffective CEOs

"But these issues aren't new. And people already discuss them -- politicians especially."

So what, there's a limit on the amount of people who can discuss an issue, and it should be limited to politicians? Obviously he does it in a way that gets more people engaged.


"So what, there's a limit on the amount of people who can discuss an issue, and it should be limited to politicians?"

Brilliant inference. That's not at all what I said.

"Obviously he does it in a way that gets more people engaged."

Maybe. But it's pretty sad that people need a self-righteous version of Punk'd to wake up and realize shit that should be patently obvious.

a self-righteous version of Punk'd

That's the type of propaganda that can only be learned from watching a whole bunch of Michael Moore movies.

"That's the type of propaganda that can only be learned from watching a whole bunch of Michael Moore movies."

How so?

Just a joke. You seem cranky. I'll leave you alone now.

He never really offers any real solutions other than slant his material to support his socialist agendae (like labor unions are good, government-run healthcare is the way to go, we need gun control to prevent violence, etc.).

This is 100% true and nobody can ever deny it.

But he does get common folks (non-politicians) talking about stuff. And since, technically, this country belongs to them (us?), shouldn't we have a starting point for these sorts of discussions?

Maybe at the end of the discussion, the answer is, "Yes, Mike Moore is a self-righteous asshole with a sillier agenda than Peewee's Playhouse," but thank god we're at least having the discussion.

The insurance system in this country deserves to be talked about. Yes, most people have it, but a lot of folks like bartenders, waiters, pimps, etc., who provide services that we all use, don't. Whether or not that's the way it ought to be is up for debate, but its a debate that WE ought to be having, and not just the folks at United Healthcare and Congress.

Say what you will about Moore and his douchely ways, but, now, folks will talk. There's value in that.

"Just a joke. You seem cranky. I'll leave you alone now."

I am cranky. Just got back from vacation. I think you know that feeling.

"Say what you will about Moore and his douchely ways, but, now, folks will talk. There's value in that."

I disagree that enough regular people weren't talking about this before fatbody came on the scene, but I see your point. I guess the more dialogue, the better.

Why does Jack Klompus hate fat people?

Why does Jack Klompus hate fat people?

...and America for that matter.

"Why does Jack Klompus hate fat people?"

Because of their man boobies.

"Why does Jack Klompus hate fat people?

...and America for that matter.

Because of all the fat people....with their man boobies.

Hey, what happened to my paragraphs?

While I haven't seen any of his movies, Moore seems to point out other people's flaws while using less than ethical (or illegal) methods to do it. Same reason I hate Al Gore. They think rules don't apply to them, but they should apply to everyone else.

"one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws." Martin Luther King Jr.

What happens when the rules applied are so unfair and unconstitutional that they prevent one from telling the truth. Even more so, what happens to the Americans who just stand by and watch as our once glorious nation continues to spiral out of control when a more or less capitalist regime sets in power. you want to say "liberal ass-clown douchebag" like its an insult, when really, its the liberal ass-clown douchebags that are trying to make sure that your non-voting person doesn't have to be constantly monitored by our Big Brother Bush and his buddies at the NSA. Telecom Scandle anyone? So just shut your trap and help the cause by doing something creative and become a liberal, not trash them, or the film makers who might try to represent them.

As far as Michel Moore goes, im rather indiffrent as to what he says, its obvious if you take a moment to look at it all anddo some reading. US healthcare is lacking. Standardize and it will be cheaper, but wheres the motivation for all of those shallow rich kids to go and make more money when doctors will be getting paied just like the mail man. i say leave healthcare where it is, our QUALITY of healthcare is more important that the QUANITY of people recieving it. Plus, only a small portion of people in the US dont qualify for state assisted healthcare. look into it.

It's not Michael Moore that people hate, but the fact that he upsets our delicate balance of "What I don't know can't hurt me...and I don't want to feel pressured to do something about it" and other hypocracies.

People who believe it is "unAmerican" to speak out against the government just don't GET what America is all about!

FUCK anyone who hates michael mooore. He only wants whats best for the nation and anyone who can't realize that is either an ignorant bastard who can't handle the truth or george bush.

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