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January 27, 2012

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Jack Klompus

"telling a bunch of people to stop sending their children to college because they are institutions of indoctrination"

Both sides of the political/spiritual aisle are pursuing their own indoctrinations. Anytime one side accuses the other of not wanting people to be educated or "free thinkers" -- it just means they themselves fear loss of control.

"By indoctrination of course he means teaching them things like science, philosophy,and critical thinking"

So philosophy doesn't intermix with theology? Did you take any philosophy courses (other than Atheism 101)?

"If it is in fact true that education is at odds with faith.."

Maybe in a few cases. But it's far from an absolute. Pitting education as a whole versus religious faith is a strawman. Same way creepy-ass Santorum and his ilk tries to claim mutual exclusivity between atheism and morality.

Vandelay

Well...philosophy of course can be anything you want I suppose. Any asshole can have an opinion and try to seel it as philosophy. It's just that the philosophy at secular institutions of higher learning tend to be based in reason and logic. It's more about teaching people how to think as opposed to teaching them what to think.

Pitting education as a whole versus religious faith is a strawman.

That's true. I don't mean to imply that they have to be mutually exclusive but if Santorum's stat about the 62% is correct, there must be something to it.

AssPologist

"No, no...you don't get it, Vandelay. He doesn't REALLY think that. He's just pandering to the lowest common denominator."

No, I'm pretty sure he believes it. I've heard this perspective before and in a number of cases, it's true. But, frankly, any education you receive outside of algebra class is going to feature some amount of ideological indoctrination.

It's only a concern if you feel your ideology is weak enough that hearing an alternative perspective could compromise it. Like, most historians aren't bent up about their students reading about Paul Bunyan - it's not really a genuine competition.

Pitting education as a whole versus religious faith is a strawman.

Clearly. There are lots of university courses that promote faith, even at non-Bible colleges. They even have chapels and priests on campus. The issue is whether or not you feel students, having been presented with both options, will opt into faith over secularism.

Even if that's true though, it's quite clear that him and all of his opponents want nothing more than to keep the ignorant as ignorant as possible.

Yes, but he wouldn't call it ignorance. He'd call them believers, claiming that there's inherent value in turning yourself over to a collective, without question, in exchange for eternal contentedness. This is essentially the plot to Peter Pan.

Assman

Also, fair to mention here... Santorum's math draws a spurious conclusion.

He says 62% of believers that go to college leave as non-believers, or something of that sort. I'd like to see the percentage of believers who move out of their parents' house and go live on their own for four years (not at college) away from the required church routine, that come out as non-believers.

It's possible that that cause is decreased exposure or a separation from indoctrinating parents, rather than whatever is being taught in school.

Vandelay

That's a good point. I thought about that too. Maybe it's just any environment that promotes individualism. Hell...it's also entirely possible that Santorum just pulled that out of his ass for the sake of some good old-fashioned fear mongering.

Jack Klompus

@Assman
"It's possible that that cause is decreased exposure or a separation from indoctrinating parents, rather than whatever is being taught in school"

I guess the part I'm stuck on is: who gives a shit what Santorum says? And more importantly, who gives a shit about the people who are listening to him? It's not like he's poisoning otherwise useful minds. Unless we're talking Creepy Politician Hall of Fame, Santorum has no chance of being elected to anything ever again.

@Vandelay
"Maybe it's just any environment that promotes individualism."

Which is? College?

H.E. Pennypacker

But, frankly, any education you receive outside of algebra class is going to feature some amount of ideological indoctrination.
Think about it, though... x could stand for anything. ANYthing. Could you replace God with an x? All those atheist immoral godless commie So-Called-Professors seem to have done just that.

And, if I may point this out, the word "algebra" is originally Arabic. That's the language of Islam, and thus terrorism. In conclusion, math class makes people into terrorists, and math teachers are just Terror Indoctrinators.

Vandelay

Oh...you sleep with one dead fetus for one night and all of a sudden that makes you a creep?

Which is? College?

Doesn't even make sense. Don't mind me. I was trying to lend credence to Assman's hypothesis.

Assman

...who gives a shit what Santorum says? And more importantly, who gives a shit about the people who are listening to him? It's not like he's poisoning otherwise useful minds...

Only very occasionally do you overestimate people.

A few months ago, I was invited to speak on a panel at a convention. Folks asked me questions and I winged some answers. Things that I said, valid or not, ended up being repeated by publications and potentially becoming conventional wisdom. This was shit I was winging!

Santorum isn't the only asshole to say this kind of stuff, but his going on the record with it just adds credence to the next guy who comes along to parrot him.

I'm saying... if it's possible to get this fact right before the noise gets popularized, I'd rather do it.

And, if I may point this out, the word "algebra" is originally Arabic. That's the language of Islam, and thus terrorism. In conclusion, math class makes people into terrorists, and math teachers are just Terror Indoctrinators.

Goddamnit!

Jack Klompus

"if it's possible to get this fact right before the noise gets popularized"

Sure it's possible. But what makes for a more marketable sound byte/quote? Something sensible/factual, or something insanely idiotic and unfounded?

Vandelay

In this market? Probably the latter.

Assman

Sure it's possible. But what makes for a more marketable sound byte/quote? Something sensible/factual, or something insanely idiotic and unfounded?

You can make a good sound byte out of sensibility. Christopher Hitchens was famous for it. Not all sound bytes are as dumb as "he's gonna chaaaaange it, rearraaaaange it."

All I'm saying is... get the facts. Get 'em. Let's get them shits. Do the good math on it.

Then, if someone decides to get out there rhyming and clapping and shit like Jesse Jackson about the wrong facts, someone else can rhyme and clap the other perspective, and let whoever has the better Youtube skills win.

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