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April 29, 2008

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Dr. Strangejazz

Religion and Politics do not mix.

That being said I saw Rev. Wright speak before the National Press Club and I thought he made some good points. The problem is that he was PREACHING to them as if he was in church.

"The best quote was the religion of the master is not the religion of the slave."

White theology is different than black theology.

Apparently that point was missed and people were too busy paying attention to his bravado.

Bottomline: Rev. Wright is defending the black church but at the same time he's ruining it for Obama.

It is a shame people cannot separate the two.

Let this be a lesson to any black person who wants to be president. Tell your pastor to STFU.

Jack Klompus

"I understand the positions he takes on race relations and this post has nothing to do that subject but only the fact that this guy is putting a huge dent in the campaign of the best candidate for President there is simply to feed his own ego."

Why should Wright pander? He's not the one running for President. If something like this sinks Obama, then Barry's really not as strong a candidate as people thought. He's going to have to deal with much tougher shit than this in a general election, as well as in the Oval office.

"It's time to cut the cord on this clown."

Obama has cut the cord. It's all the media at this point. As long as it sells, they'll keep him in the "news" cycle.

"This is another great example of why religion and politics don't mix well"

Do politics mix well with anything?

Jackie

Black on Black crime is apparently very alive and very well.

Mr. Kruger

Why should Wright pander? He's not the one running for President.

I don't think anyone should pander for any reason. He's soaking up all this attention only because he's connected to Obama and if he really feels strongly about what preaches he'd be supporting him instead of torpedoing his campaign. The message he's sending "I'm more important than the first potential black President."

White theology is different than black theology. Apparently that point was missed and people were too busy paying attention to his bravado.

The point was not missed at all and I thought it was very meaningful. But he's seems to have little interest in using that insight as a means of helping Obama get elected and more as a way to punish him for denouncing other statements he has made in the past. The guy lacks character.

Jeff

Why does Wright keep giving the media reason to talk about him? Is he really trying to hurt Obama? I guess it's more important to him to defend his own statements than it is to see Obama succeed. Why did the NAACP invite him to speak? Didn't they realize what it would cause? Are they trying to hurt Obama's campaign? Was it so exciting to have a topical speaker at their gala that it was worth hurting Obama's campaign? This is truly frustrating.

Jack Klompus

"if he really feels strongly about what preaches he'd be supporting him instead of torpedoing his campaign."

Couldn't disagree more. If Wright feels strongly about what he preaches, then he certainly shouldn't shut up/apologize just to assuage white voters so they'll elect Obama. That would be contraditory to what he's all about. In the end, it's up to the Obama campaign to solve this media bonanza. If they can't, then they have no business being in the race.

phil

I think Kruger says it all when he said this:

"...this guy is putting a huge dent in the campaign of the best candidate for President there is simply to feed his own ego."

That's what's going on here.

Mr. Kruger

If Wright feels strongly about what he preaches, then he certainly shouldn't shut up/apologize just to assuage white voters

I can not understand this logic- if that's what it is. Making an ass of himself is in noone's best interest- not even his own.

Jeff

I just read this article which suggests these recent Wright appearances are part of a damage control strategy by the Obama campaign. I have to admit, now, it seems plausible. If so, I hope they know what they're doing.

Jeff

Oops, forgot the link:

http://isaacs.newsvine.com/_news/2008/04/28/1456616-catastrophe-for-obama-rev-wrights-naacp-speech

Jackie

I think Kruger says it all when he said this:

"...this guy is putting a huge dent in the campaign of the best candidate for President there is simply to feed his own ego."

That's what's going on here.

Agreed.

Horse's ass of the highest order.

Dr. Strangejazz

I think some of you here are missing the point.

Wright sees the attacks on him as an attack on the black church. I kinda agree with him on that. They were kinda an attack on black theology.

So he sees himself as defending the black church. In his mind the church is far more important than Obama. Because Rev Wright answers to a higher power.

So he doesn't need to pander to anyone because he is not apart of the Obama's campaign.

phil

He may feel this is all "an attack on the black church." But, it doesn't play out that way at all if you look at what has caused the uproar. It has nothing to do with anything other than him saying a lot of things that sound just a little bit nuts.

If it were an attack on the black church, you would see all of the usual players lining up behind him. That really isn't happening.

I still think this is a guy who is getting off on the attention at this point. Obama's having chosen him as a pastor in years past was based on how the guy was then. He's a little different now.

Jack Klompus

"I can not understand this logic- if that's what it is."

What can't you understand? Isn't this all about keeping Jeremiah quiet so whitey doesn't feel uncomfortable? Blacks are still gonna vote for Obama no matter how crazy the preacher gets.

Which brings me to another point. I don't believe Wright is hurting Obama's campaign as much as y'all perceive. How many Democrats would not vote for Obama because of Wright, versus the charge that "Obama is not as electable against McCain as Hillary?" The things is, one provides better soundbites and sexier headlines than the other. Still, both are being paddled around the news these days. Now one can argue the former is what is fueling the latter, but I think there's more to it than that.

Jackie

"It has nothing to do with anything other than him saying a lot of things that sound just a little bit nuts."

Exactly. It is about Him. Nothing more, nothing less. Him and his selfish, egotistical ass.

And, not for nothing, but whevener there is lively discourse taking place with reasonably intelligent people and someone prefaces their point with this missive ...

"I think some of you here are missing the point."

...I usually start searching around for a glass of STFU.

Isn't this all about keeping Jeremiah quiet so whitey doesn't feel uncomfortable?

No. It's about guilt by association and Wright is giving the media and the other campaigns every opportunity to carry on with this circus act. It's about the difference between having to listen candidates continually deflect mud and getting them to talk about the issues. It's not as complicated as you're making it out to be.

Dr. Strangejazz

@phil

You would like to think that the "usual players" would come out but that's not the case. IMO a lot of them were too scared to say anything for fear of making more of a mess of the situation. Besides a lot of people thought this was over after the Obama speech.

Rev. Wright is within his rights to defend the black church but it is hurting Obama's chances.

phil

"I don't believe Wright is hurting Obama's campaign as much as y'all perceive."

Klompus is right here. Goes without saying there are those who are grasping at anything they can to slow Obama's momentum. God, I certainly hope he doesn't accidentally run over his cat.

"...lively discourse taking place with reasonably intelligent people..."

Thanks for the generosity, Jackie. I needed that today.

Jack Klompus

"It is about Him. Nothing more, nothing less. Him and his selfish, egotistical ass."

No way. There's a lot more at play than just that. That may be Wright's own motivation, but there still has to be a medium and a willing audience. When you compare Wright with some of Obama's other skeletons (as well as Hillary's skeletons)it's interesting to me why this continues to have so much news traction. Why the fuck is it such a big deal? I'm not surprised, but I am perplexed.

Dr. Strangejazz

@Jack Klompus

It's a big deal because the media is making it a big deal. It's the media's way of letting people know that Obama is the BLACK candidate and he goes to a WACKY church.

At this point the whole coverage pisses me off. It's as if black people and white people are hearing TWO different things when it comes to this.

phil

@ Strangejazz

Since when are "lot of them ...too scared to say anything for fear of making more of a mess of the situation"? I rarely see that concern come into play in how some of those players decide when to throw their hat in. Perhaps I am missing the point of how, overall, what Wright says is in defense of the black church.

And, please, blame it on "THE MEDIA". THE MEDIA is responsible for casting this pallor on the campaign. I think we have to look deeper at how THE MEDIA is used, and by whom. I think it's obvious.

Jackie

No way. There's a lot more at play than just that.

Fair enough. I admittedly got a little carried away.

You would like to think that the "usual players" would come out but that's not the case. IMO a lot of them were too scared to say anything for fear of making more of a mess of the situation

All due respect, but honestly, where do you come up with this stuff?

Mr. Kruger

So he sees himself as defending the black church. In his mind the church is far more important than Obama. Because Rev Wright answers to a higher power.

And he sees himself as "The Black Church" and the higher power is more power.

Dr. Strangejazz

@phil

Yeah the media is to blame on this one because they could have choosen not to cover Rev Wright.

"I rarely see that concern come into play in how some of those players decide when to throw their hat in. Perhaps I am missing the point of how, overall, what Wright says is in defense of the black church."

I think you are missing the point. If you spent 48 minutes and listened to the entire speech made at the National Press Club you would get a better understanding.

As far as the usual players go. I think a lot of people thought this would blow over after Obama made the speech.

Another reason could have been Obama told them not to interfere.

phil

@ Strangejazz

"Yeah the media is to blame on this one because they could have choosen not to cover Rev Wright."

THE MEDIA. You talk about this like it is an singular entity. It's not. But I'm done with that.

Wright is a nut job. If he is defending the black church, he is actually doing it a disservice. The media covered him because old video of his sermons "happened" to land in their lap. How do you think it got there?

Dr. Strangejazz

@Jackie

"All due respect, but honestly, where do you come up with this stuff?"

That's a rhetorical question right?

If I was to tell you that black people waited to see how white people felt about Obama before they decided to support him would I be making that up?

If I was to tell you that some black people felt Bill Clinton was "more black" than Obama would I be making that up?

Those two instances within the context of this dialogue should give you perspective as to how strange black people can be.

Jackie is it that much out of the question to say that Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton didn't feel like giving a dissertation on black theology to the white masses. Let alone do you think they were capable of doing it in a way that wouldn't make them look like they were defending a man who is now seen as a pariah?

It would have looked like they are defending a man who has been painted as a pariah and it would mess things up even more then they already are.

Jack Klompus

"Yeah the media is to blame on this one because they could have choosen not to cover Rev Wright."

Still, there has to be an audience. Otherwise, the media wouldn't bother. And that audience is primarily Republican voters. That's why I don't think it's hurting his chances as much as the buzz would suggest. Sure, some staunch Hillary supporters are eating this up as well, but not enough to keep the story alive on their own.

Jackie

It would have looked like they are defending a man who has been painted as a pariah and it would mess things up even more then they already are.

So, your point is that Sharpton does not want to mess up things for Obama therefore he is keeping his mouth shut?

Dr. Strangejazz

"So, your point is that Sharpton does not want to mess up things for Obama therefore he is keeping his mouth shut?"

I think Sharpton is too busy with the Sean Bell nonsense to even be bothered.

Sharpton has not formally endorced anyone at this point has he?

Mr. Kruger

Still, there has to be an audience. Otherwise, the media wouldn't bother.

That's a bit naive to think that the media doesn't have an agenda. If the big stockholders want something- they get it. Why hasn't McCain got his ass kicked for graciously accepting Rev James Hagee's endorsement? That deal blew over in like one day. Not to mention Pat Robertson's endorsement. These guy call for military invasions, assassinations, blame 911 on gays, and Katrina on New Orleans. They make Wright look bright and shiny and nothing comes of it. The corporate media does create what people think is news.

Jack Klompus

"That's a bit naive to think that the media doesn't have an agenda."

Agreed. So who said the media doesn't have an agenda? And while on the that topic (and I'm pretty sure we've argued about this in the past) it's not a one-sided agenda. The bias varies by media outlet.

Mr. Kruger

Agreed. So who said the media doesn't have an agenda?

By saying that it only covers what it has an audience for I thought that's what you were inferring. If not, my bad- but at the least it often grooms an audience towards one position or another in order to stay within its agenda.

The bias varies by media outlet.

Not in the run-up to the Iraq War it didn't. They (the news conglomerates) certainly have different styles and appeal to different constituencies but at the end of the day it's the guy who cuts them their paycheck that gets to say what becomes news and what gets ignored.

Jack Klompus

"The bias varies by media outlet."

Not in the run-up to the Iraq War it didn't.

Well, if you only include Fox and CNN then maybe you have a point. But if you also include NBC, ABC, CBS, MSNBC, NYT, Washington Post, and Newsweek -- then you're outta your fuckin' mind.

Mr. Kruger your comments regarding Reverend Wright’s attempt to “parody the accents of Presidents,” only further affirms White America’s lack of understanding of African-American theological traditions and heritage. However, in this short media forum (Internet commentary response) one cannot begin to educate you in reference to the rich heritage of the African-American pulpit / style of preaching, this is so even if one were to (reservedly) believe that you truly have a desire to learn.

Furthermore, it is White America’s chimera that Mr.Obama really had a chance to become President given America’s ignominious history and our present state of divisiveness. In truth we are so deeply entrenched in denial of our history as evidenced in the deepening socioeconomic stratification justifications that what White America’s rhetoric amounts to is more of the same with the twist of modern political correctness; such as your comment that for the first time an African-American, Mr.Obama truly had a chance. All that the Wright hoop-la has done is given White America a retrieve of guilt to maintain the status quo.

In summation, while some claim, yes I would have voted for him, they can now breathe a sigh of relief and get behind the dark of the polling curtain and vote their true historical conscious. So, I say, as the old adage goes, “I think you protest too much,” Reverend Wright, the African-American church or the African-American collective state of mind should not deter one from standing by their convictions regarding Mr. Obama, or in the language of my people, if doing the right thing ever truly mattered to White America.

Jack Klompus

That might be the most well-versed diarrhea to ever grace our comments section.

Mr. Kruger

Mr. Kruger your comments regarding Reverend Wright’s attempt to “parody the accents of Presidents,” only further affirms White America’s lack of understanding of African-American theological traditions and heritage.

I didn't know the two were connected. Apparently I wasn't the only ignorant to this phenomenon.

“I think you protest too much,”

"Airing of Grievances" bud. You get a lot of that around here.

or in the language of my people, if doing the right thing ever truly mattered to White America.

Why even bother with all the pseudo-intellectual bullshit if you're going to end the post with that lame-ass line.

Dr. Strangejazz

The guy could hav posted a name of some sort.

The guy is right. The more Rev. Wright speaks the more white people get scared.

Jackie

The more Rev. Wright speaks the more white people get scared.

Ignorant.

SL22

If Obama were ASIAN, and Wright was a WHITE guy, would Obama still be good at math?

Jeff

The media covered him because old video of his sermons "happened" to land in their lap. How do you think it got there?

Most would agree that either members of the media did some digging just in case there was something newsworthy to be unearthed or Obama's opponents did the digging for them and placed it in the media's lap. Are you suggesting otherwise?

Dr. Strangejazz

@Jackie

Maybe "scared" is too harsh a word. My point is that the more Rev. Wright keeps talking the more white people will feel that Obama is not the kind of person they want to see in the Oval office.

What's ignorant about that?

phil

@ Jeff

You are correct, that is what I meant. THE MEDIA is a conduit. As everyone has subsequently pointed out, they do have their internal influences (bias). Where did they get the stuff? I would suggest it was Obama's opponents, but that's just me.

"If Obama were ASIAN, and Wright was a WHITE guy, would Obama still be good at math?

No.

And, anonymous writer, have a long drink from Jackie's glass...

Great thread!

Jackie

"And, anonymous writer, have a long drink from Jackie's glass..."

Cheers.

Assman

Still confuses me. The guy says the government commits violence abroad and occasional atrocities against its own people, and therefore it can expect some return, and he's a fucking loon. Pat Robertson says America gets hit by natural disasters because god hates gays (that apparently only exist in America) and he gets a White House invitation.

Maybe this is just me being naive, but I kinda think the whole "controversy" here can be summed up as:

1.) Americans don't like hearing the truth about themselves because our shit doesn't stink.

2.) Any half assed theories put forth by religious leaders about how god likes to use his magic had better be criticizing somebody who isn't us.

3.) Even though every single one of us has disagreed with our parents, spouses, teachers, AofG co-commenters, 3-diamond hookers, drug dealers, preachers, leaders, movie stars and best friends in our lives, we refuse to accept that a guy can disagree with his mouthy preacher just because our news reporters tell us not to.

4.) A lot of folks suspect that brown people think differently, and, if "they" get in power, non-brown people are going to have to work in the coal mines while they fuck our women. It's always been their plan.

and... most importantly...

5.) Preachers love some motherfucking spotlight. Give one a microphone and get ready to hear him speak for as long as you'll let him. You know this is someone that has elected to grandstand for a living, right? He's not going away any faster than Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson or any other leader with Rev. in front of their name.

If I missed anything, please let me know. And, for the record, Obama will be the next president. Regardless.

If I missed anything, please let me know.

Assman, Wright has said that "if he (Obama) gets into the WH I'm coming after him." This guy can't see the forest for the trees. He's obsessed not about preaching God, but about playing God. And there's a lot at stake. If he goes off the deep, deeper end and starts pulling all kinds crazy publicity stunts the public is going to be bombarded with it through the media. The other campaigns and the media will feed off of that and try to make Obama look like nothing more than a sunnier version of Wright. They'll say "he must be fanatical too." That's how candidates get destroyed and that's why it was a good start yesterday for Obama when he totally cut off all relations with this idiot.

Mr. Kruger

That was me- cocksucker timed out again. Anyway, here's some backup to my point.

Jack Klompus

@Assman

I think you captured the essence of what's going on quite well, but I would challenge one point:

"we refuse to accept that a guy can disagree with his mouthy preacher just because our news reporters tell us not to."

I don't think it's so much a refusal to accept Obama being able to disagree with Wright. It's more about Obama's genuineness in handling the situation. It's hard to believe Wright just radically changed during the past 20 years as Obama has suggested. It's even more unimaginable Obama wasn't aware of Wright's views until now. Yes, it's nitpicking. But that's part of politics. All candidates get their share. As well, all candidates tow the line and say what they have to get by, regardless of the truth. The difference here is that because Obama is "new" and doesn't have the history of a Clinton or a McCain -- it gets magnified.

Likes to be informed.

"The media covered him because old video of his sermons "happened" to land in their lap. How do you think it got there?"

Hopefully it got there from someone doing some background on a man who wants to be president. This is what the media is supposed to do.

The Reverand basically did the work of the damned talk radio. They (hannity, limbaugh, levin) have been spewing their disbelief that obama has is what he claims, a change from the usual politics. Wright did their dirty work by saying that Obama will do what politicians do, distance themselves, but when the lights are off, Obama knows who i am and what i stand for. Obama admits going to the MIllion Man March, organised by Farakon (spelling?), but denounces the man when he endorsed him for president. That will be covered once this blows over. Wait till the general election comes. If he is having problems now, he is in for some bumpy roads. The media is not covering his relationship with William Ayers, who bombed the pentagon, NY Police stations and othor places. This will be a good dream once the media starts hitting him with that.

Dr. Strangejazz

@Likes to be informed.

Bill Clinton pardoned people who were in the weather underground.

You're grasping for straws if you think the media is gonna go after Obama for attending the Million Man March. Do you have any idea how many Congressmen, attended that thing?

By the way it's spelled Farrakhan.

Jack Klompus

"Bill Clinton pardoned people who were in the weather underground."

Doesn't mean it won't be talked about. John McCain got a mere slap on the wrist for being part of the Keating 5. You don't think that will be drudged up again before November?

"You're grasping for straws if you think the media is gonna go after Obama for attending the Million Man March."

I don't think that was the point. When Obama denounces (and rejects) Farrakhan's endorsement, people are going to quetion his authenticity given that he participated in the event organized by Farrakhan. There going to ask, "why didn't he denounce him then?" While I think the answer to that is simple -- the MMM was about something bigger than Farrakhan's anti-semitic past -- it will still be talked about, scrutinized, twisted, etc.

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