...but this pastor thing scares the shit out of me. It's been pretty easy to brush off all of the bullshit rhetoric thrown Obama's way during this campaign but I'm really struggling with this cat. It's fairly-well documented that he considers this man to be a mentor and a role model of sorts and all you need to do is take one look at what this guy preaches to figure out that he hates white people. Obama can reject him all he wants but I'm having a real hard time believing that he's never heard the man preach in this manner. I'm also having a hard time believing that he thinks no more of him than some crazy uncle. The bottom line is that I don't want to vote for somebody that may have a hate-laced agenda but I'm open to somebody telling me I'm overreacting here.
Who wants to talk me off the ledge?
I'm quite sure you're overreacting here. Sure the guy's a bit angry, but he also had different experiences than Barack did. Certainly experiences that would challenge one's tolerance. Not saying I excuse Wright's rhetoric. However, you don't learn everything solely from a person's qualities. Flaws or just plain philosophical differences are educational as well.
And any notion that Obama has some secret anti-white agenda is just plain silly.
Posted by: Jack Klompus | March 17, 2008 at 01:12 PM
The media has found two or three excerpts of this man's sermons over the last thirty years of preaching and that is supposed to represent his entire body of work? I have quite a few friends from Chicago who attend this church or who have been there on a regular basis and they all say it really is all hype. He's not that much different from many black ministers in this country. And if Jeremiah Wright hates white people, maybe he has a good reason to do so. We don't know anything about his background. Maybe Obama understands why he feels the way he does, though he might not agree with him personally, but he understands. Furthermore, I don't think we have to agree with our ministers completely to attend their church. In 2004, my minister said that "homosexuality is a sin" (don't feel like going into entire context, but there was a legitimate context) and I was offended. That was the first time I had heard him say something like that and I wrote him a letter stating that whereas I know it states that in the Bible, I think we need to evolve past this archaic way of thinking. Blah, blah, blah. Anyway, I still attend the church. But if I were running for president and someone brought that up, as if I blindly follow anyone, I would respond that the days of drinking koolaid because our religious leader says so are over. And I really think Obama should do the same.
Posted by: E-Boogie | March 17, 2008 at 01:15 PM
I agree with all parties. Obama has a different experience. My father hates white people. I lived with him for 20 years. My mother was also biased. I listened to bigotry all day long. I am not racist. I understand my parents have residual anger from actual oppression.
Obama is smarter than me and therefore probably better at seperating his feelings from those of his pastor.
Posted by: Ocho Ocho | March 17, 2008 at 01:20 PM
And any notion that Obama has some secret anti-white agenda is just plain silly.
Is it though? I mean regardless of how oppressed Wright may feel through his experiences, it seems clear that he has an anti-white agenda. Whether that's justified or not, don't people go to church looking for guidance? Would you ever describe someone as a spiritual mentor if you didn't necessarily buy what they were selling you?
Posted by: Art Vandelay | March 17, 2008 at 01:23 PM
"it seems clear that he has an anti-white agenda."
Perhaps you can all it that. You may also call it apro-black agenda. Or maybe just vindication. Either way, that doesn't automatically equate to Obama having the same agenda.
"Would you ever describe someone as a spiritual mentor if you didn't necessarily buy what they were selling you? "
I don't think it's an all-or-nothing deal.
Posted by: Jack Klompus | March 17, 2008 at 01:31 PM
BIG SEXY ASKS:
"WHAT SAY YOU, JACKIE?"
Posted by: BIG SEXY | March 17, 2008 at 01:41 PM
Anyway, I still attend the church. But if I were running for president and someone brought that up, as if I blindly follow anyone, I would respond that the days of drinking koolaid because our religious leader says so are over. And I really think Obama should do the same.
Or you/him could just write him off as an ignorant blowhard and not go to his church. Minor philosophical differences aside, if I were at church one day and my pastor started waxing poetic about the black man being the bane of our existence, I'm not going back.
Obama is smarter than me and therefore probably better at seperating his feelings from those of his pastor.
I think if he were really smart, he would have stopped attending this church a long time ago.
Posted by: Art Vandelay | March 17, 2008 at 01:49 PM
Ahem, but wasn't Obama raised by his mother? Who happens to be white? I'd say that might blunt the impression that he has an anti-white agenda.
BTW, what would an anti-white agenda mean? Directing the police to "randomly" search young white guys while young black and latino guys are left alone? Making the possession of one ounce of crystal meth be equal to ten kilos of heroin for the purposes of criminal sentencing?
Posted by: TMan | March 17, 2008 at 01:56 PM
Perhaps you can all it that. You may also call it apro-black agenda. Or maybe just vindication. Either way, that doesn't automatically equate to Obama having the same agenda.
I know it doesn't. It's a bit of a fuzzy line but if I were forced to take a guess, I'd have to lean in that direction.
That would really be some vindication if his rhetoric jeopardized the chances of the country that he despises so much electing their first black president.
Posted by: Art Vandelay | March 17, 2008 at 01:57 PM
Ahem, but wasn't Obama raised by his mother? Who happens to be white? I'd say that might blunt the impression that he has an anti-white agenda.
Excellent point but to me it still doesn't explain why he'd align himself with someone who does.
BTW, what would an anti-white agenda mean? Directing the police to "randomly" search young white guys while young black and latino guys are left alone? Making the possession of one ounce of crystal meth be equal to ten kilos of heroin for the purposes of criminal sentencing?
I don't kow how much pull the president has on judicial matters. Generally, existing biases shouldn't be influencing policy decisions. No, I can't dispute the fact that every other president we've ever had had probably had existing biases that influence policy decisions. Still doesn't make it right.
Posted by: Art Vandelay | March 17, 2008 at 02:07 PM
My minister is a married philanderer. He has been caught in the basement en fuego with a parishioner not his wife.
I do not respect this man really. But he says interesting and uplifting things now and again.
I do not agree with this man's actions. Yet I still go to listen to him sometimes
We let slick Willy govern with such faults. Many even forgave him. Do you back slick willy totally. I doubt it. Are you sophisticated to pick and choose what t listen to and what to agree with from a person's agenda? Probably. Is Obama? Yes.
Posted by: Ocho Ocho | March 17, 2008 at 02:26 PM
make all the excuses you want, but if you go to church for 20 years and listen to AND SUPPORT white-haters and U.S.-haters, don't lie about it and pretend you never heard it. Barry is just another lying, theiving politician, and all of you blind supporters need to figure that out.
Posted by: soupnazi | March 17, 2008 at 02:43 PM
We let slick Willy govern with such faults. Many even forgave him. Do you back slick willy totally. I doubt it. Are you sophisticated to pick and choose what t listen to and what to agree with from a person's agenda? Probably.
I don't think that being horny and unfaithful was ever part of his agenda.
Posted by: Art Vandelay | March 17, 2008 at 02:46 PM
BIG SEXY ASKS:
"WHAT SAY YOU, JACKIE?"
Jackie says that Jackie thinks he saw Obama this weekend out in Times Square in a proper moonsuit preaching some proper hate with the Black Israelites from Astoria, Queens.
Jackie also says that anyone who thinks that Obama has an anti-white agenda is at best functionally retarded.
Jackie also concurs that Obama does not sound credible saying he has never heard this stuff before.
Jackie says he still takes Obama over Hillary seven days a week and twice on Sundays.
That is what Jackie says.
Posted by: Jackie | March 17, 2008 at 03:01 PM
"make all the excuses you want, but if you go to church for 20 years and listen to AND SUPPORT white-haters and U.S.-haters, don't lie about it and pretend you never heard it. Barry is just another lying, theiving politician, and all of you blind supporters need to figure that out."
And you come to this conclusion based on 2 or 3 sound bites that the media has been pushing down our throats? Again, I think the man is much more than just those 2 or 3 sound bites. The assistant pastor and his wife are college friends of mine. And I know many people who have been to this church or attend regularly. Wright is getting a bad rap.
Also, in one sound bite they show, all he is saying is that Obama is a black man in a country run by rich white people. Did he lie? Is that not the truth? And the sound bite where he says damn America, I'd be interested in hearing the entire context.
Posted by: E-Boogie | March 17, 2008 at 03:28 PM
Jackie also says that anyone who thinks that Obama has an anti-white agenda is at best functionally retarded.
Vandelay says that anyone who can't connect some dots here and at least consider a remote possibility that Obama has an anti-white agenda is at best intransigent.
Posted by: Art Vandelay | March 17, 2008 at 03:40 PM
Obama has called Rev. Wright his mentor and even a 'crazy uncle' with whom he disagrees from time to time. You can't choose your blood relatives....but you can choose your mentors, your friends and 'dutch uncles'. Same principle with your church. You choose your church and you choose to remain. No one forces you to stay and listen to this ignorant invective. "I can understand the Reverend's bitterness...." is one thing, but to support or be complacent about it, and worse yet, to tolerate it, is another. The other really disturbing thing is watching members of the congregation cheering and applauding a man of the cloth spewing hate. Loosely and with literary license: "White people provided (i.e.,force fed) drugs to blacks... and then they built more prisons knowing blacks were prone to drug use so they'd have a place to put them.... and then they created the 3 strike law to make sure they stayed there.... and oh yeah, the evil white scientists created the AIDS virus which was targeted specifically for those blacks not in prison...." WTF???!!! How then, does the Reverend explain sickle cell, and hypertension or did he forget those in his blame list? Barack Obama isn't stupid. He changed his mind about Wright giving the invocation back in February, and it had to be a conscious decision based on Wright's behavior. For Obama to claim he didn't know what was being said strains his credibility. Then, to suddenly publicly disavow and distance yourself from your professed mentor when the heat is on.... it stinks like fish on ice. Do I think Obama hates white people? No. I just hope he continues to convey the message he doesn't through his actions and not just words.
Posted by: Killer Marine | March 17, 2008 at 03:43 PM
Vandelay says that anyone who can't connect some dots here and at least consider a remote possibility that Obama has an anti-white agenda is at best intransigent.
Jackie says that the only one who is being extreme is the one who is even remotely suggesting that Barack Obama is sitting home at nights singing Kill All Dee White People.
How then, does the Reverend explain ...hypertension...?
Go back and read your own post. The answer lies therein.
Posted by: Jackie | March 17, 2008 at 03:52 PM
Vandelay says that Killer Marine pretty much nailed it.
Kill All Dee White People.
Killin' me anyway.
Posted by: Art Vandelay | March 17, 2008 at 04:01 PM
I'll talk you off.... we all have a crazy uncle and frankly that's the whitest brother I have ever seen... sometimes they over compensate... I mean Paul Mooney... I can see... but this guy looks like my Greek Uncle Gus... I'm darker than that cat.
Posted by: Savas | March 17, 2008 at 04:07 PM
I'll talk you off....
Thanks...that was no help whatsoever.
Paul Mooney?
Posted by: Art Vandelay | March 17, 2008 at 04:23 PM
"White people provided (i.e.,force fed) drugs to blacks... and then they built more prisons knowing blacks were prone to drug use so they'd have a place to put them.... and then they created the 3 strike law to make sure they stayed there.... and oh yeah, the evil white scientists created the AIDS virus which was targeted specifically for those blacks not in prison...."
I see you've been listening to Immortal Technique again.
Posted by: Jack Klompus | March 17, 2008 at 04:37 PM
Make or Break Time:
Barack Obama will give a major speech on "the larger issue of race in this campaign," he told reporters in Monaca, PA just now.
He was pressed there, as he has been at recent appearances, on statements by his former pastor, Jeremiah Wright.
"I am going to be talking about not just Reverend Wright, but the larger issue of race in this campaign," he said.
He added that he would "talk about how some of these issues are perceived from within the black church issue for example," he said.
He also briefly defended Wright from the image that has come through in a handful of repeatedly televised clips from recent Wright sermons.
"The caricature that’s being painted of him is not accurate," he said.
The speech could offer Obama an opportunity to move past the controversy over his pastor, and to turn the conversation to a topic he'd rather focus on: his Christian faith. But the speech also guarantees that the Wright story will continue to dominate political headlines...
Obama's schedule puts him in Philadelphia tomorrow.
Posted by: Jackie | March 17, 2008 at 05:13 PM
I'm white, and I found absolutely nothing wrong with the excerpts on that ABC News website. Does that mean I'm against white people, too?
Posted by: H.E. Pennypacker | March 17, 2008 at 05:57 PM
He added that he would "talk about how some of these issues are perceived from within the black church issue for example," he said.
"The caricature that’s being painted of him is not accurate," he said.
And I'm unfortunately betting "Break Time," because I don't care how sliver-tongued the man thinks he is, nobody wants the hear this shit.
The guy is saying 9/11 was "like chickens coming home to roost" and that is it, Barack. You can qualify, reason, disclaim, smooth talk all you damn please, but there are a ton of people, and a ton of very sensible people, who simply do not want to hear it.
Is what it is.
Posted by: Jackie | March 17, 2008 at 05:58 PM
Oh, one more thing: look up Ward Churchill's essay, On the Justice of Roosting Chickens. He's brash, but he makes some good points.
Posted by: H.E. Pennypacker | March 17, 2008 at 06:00 PM
This whole controversy is one big red herring. It has nothing to do what Obama stands for and everything to do with idiot America's infatuation with the media vomit. Vandelay, cable news is not news- it's what falls out of your ass everyday- that is all (read infotainment).
Obama's response to Wright's intransigence (note Vandelay correct usage of this word) was wholly relevant and timely. I think Ocho's comments go a long way in bringing to light just how ridiculous it is to accuse someone of conspiracy in this type of situation.
Posted by: Mr. Kruger | March 17, 2008 at 08:05 PM
Kruger, I have no issue with Obama's response. I just find it hard to believe that you can know a man for that long and not ever have been exposed to his beliefs about "White America." If that's true, then that's great...but are we supposed to just blindly believe everything we hear from people that are campaigning for the POTUS or should we try to logically put things together before writing them off?
Posted by: Art Vandelay | March 17, 2008 at 09:06 PM
And so long as we are asking questions, I finally read the linked to article, and I have a question of my own: What exactly is so "anti-white" about the stuff linked to in that article?
Posted by: jackie | March 17, 2008 at 09:26 PM
"or should we try to logically put things together before writing them off?"
'Logically,' yes. But don't forget 'rationally' as well.
Posted by: Jack Klompus | March 17, 2008 at 09:49 PM
Honestly, I didn't even read that link. I was actually reading about this on the newspaper over the weekend. I just posted that link from when it first came out to reference what I was talking about. I assume most people who read this blog already read about it as well.
They have some of his stuff on youtube. I would check them out. I wouldn't call it belligerent or anything but a lot of it get's retty close to the line between insight and ignorance.
Posted by: Art Vandelay | March 17, 2008 at 09:53 PM
'Logically,' yes. But don't forget 'rationally' as well.
I'm not being irrational. I'm not labeling Obama anything. I don't believe that. It's certainly something that can be looked at objectively though.
Posted by: Art Vandelay | March 17, 2008 at 09:57 PM
...but are we supposed to just blindly believe everything we hear from people that are campaigning for the POTUS or should we try to logically put things together before writing them off?
Shouldn't the same hold true for people going to a church and hearing a preacher talk shit?
Look - him saying he'd never heard this before is bull. If you've spent time around a group of 5 black people for more than 30 minutes, you've probably heard similar ranting. It happens.
But everyone is allowed to think critically and make their own decisions about life. Obama may have heard this shit and thought, "well, in general, the messages he preaches when he's not ranting are fantastic," and decided not to leave. When my parents say racist shit, I don't disown them because the rest of what they say is chill. When my brother talks about 9/11 being fake, I smile and nod, but I still call him next week so we can talk about ball. When my bartender goes off about Repbulicans all being closet gays, I write him off, but I still come back for the free drinks.
Obama's a bright guy. He doesn't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just because this guy says a few bullshit things in the middle of a 20 year run of positive leadership doesn't mean he's got to go immediately.
Big Ben put his face through a windshield with no helmet on like an idiot. Can he no longer be trusted to make decisions? Or can you take the good with the bad?
Posted by: Assman | March 18, 2008 at 10:21 AM
Put another way:
If your entire life was recorded on video and somebody put together a Youtube clip of the dumbest things you've ever said and done (some of which are on record here on the site, including a certain bout with crabs), then showed that clip to the nation, should your wife have to divorce you because everyone else thinks you're an idiot?
Or can she say, "Yeah that was stupid, but in general, he's a good dude."?
Posted by: Assman | March 18, 2008 at 10:25 AM
I did not read ever comment so I'm coming into this thing very late.
There's a double standard. Pat Roberson and the late Jerry Falwell have said FAR WORSE things than J. Wright's comments.
Obama did the right thing by denouncing him. But we must see the double standard.
Can someone out there can name me a politician who has ever had to denounce JERRY FALWELL or PAT ROBERSON?
Posted by: Dr. Strangejazz | March 18, 2008 at 10:55 AM
"Can someone out there can name me a politician who has ever had to denounce JERRY FALWELL or PAT ROBERSON?"
McCain called them both "agents of intolerance" back in 2000.
Posted by: Jack Klompus | March 18, 2008 at 11:35 AM
Keep in mind how comments may affect constituents.
For example, a Republican not denouncing anti-gay remarks will probably not hurt in the polls.
However, a Democrat not denouncing anti-American/anti-white comments will hurt in the polls.
Its not about being right or wrong here or even a double standard, its about knowing where your bread is buttered.
Posted by: Crazy Joe Davola | March 18, 2008 at 12:13 PM
"its about knowing where your bread is buttered."
And where your McRib is sauced.
Posted by: Jack Klompus | March 18, 2008 at 12:21 PM
I commend Obama for sticking by his friend and approve of his comments.
To me, its like the scene in Clear and Present Danger when the guy close to the President was killed and the government seized 800 million. The President was going to distance himself and Jack Ryan suggested to do the opposite and say he was his very good friend.
Posted by: Crazy Joe Davola | March 18, 2008 at 12:40 PM
If your entire life was recorded on video and somebody put together a Youtube clip of the dumbest things you've ever said and done (some of which are on record here on the site, including a certain bout with crabs), then showed that clip to the nation, should your wife have to divorce you because everyone else thinks you're an idiot?
The concern for me is that Wright's "stupidity" is not so much about clumsiness or a lack of attention to detail but it is in terms of deep-rooted beliefs and being in a position of influence, he tries to force those beliefs on others. I'm not trying to get people to jump off bridges at Rolling Stones concerts.
Can Obama reject them? Of course. Can he see a trend of hatred in his beliefs and decide that he doesn't want to consider this man a mentor? I'd prefer it, but sure...I'm willing to accept that Obama has no secret anti-white agenda. It certainly doesn't seem likely. It doesn't mean there aren't legitimate questions to be asked though.
Read Killer Marine's post again. He said it better than I ever could.
Posted by: Art Vandelay | March 18, 2008 at 12:41 PM
Check it out:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/18/us/politics/18text-obama.html
Obama brings the heat again and puts a lid on this for all but the most intractable of readers.
Red Herring tossed back overboard...
Posted by: TMan | March 18, 2008 at 12:51 PM
I suggest you all read Obama's speech today about the whole Wright situation.
Hopefully he closed the book on this and we can move on.
Isn't it wrong for people to think that he's going to be influenced by this man as far as policy is concerned. That's really an insult to his judgement. Who here does everything their pastor, rabbi, and/or preist says?
He has said he doesn't agree with his pastor that should be the end of it. Right?
Posted by: Dr. Strangejazz | March 18, 2008 at 02:14 PM
RE: Klompus
"McCain called them both "agents of intolerance" back in 2000."
I did not know that. Is that before or after the GOP planted that story about him having an illegitimate child, which was later proven wrong?
Posted by: Dr. Strangejazz | March 18, 2008 at 02:15 PM
"I'm not trying to get people to jump off bridges at Rolling Stones concerts."
Killin' me, Vandelay.
Posted by: Jack Klompus | March 18, 2008 at 04:01 PM
"I did not know that. Is that before or after the GOP planted that story about him having an illegitimate child, which was later proven wrong?"
Not sure, Strangejazz. But in fairness, McCain has since backed off those statements seeing as now he is depending on the evangelicrazy vote.
Posted by: Jack Klompus | March 18, 2008 at 04:04 PM