Only in America...

...do we need to apologize for making a good point. A reporter issued his apology after making the following statement during a roundtable talk show:

"It's really a sad day in this country when somehow ... Michael Vick would have been better off raping a woman if you look at the outcry of what happened," Zeise said. "Had he done that, he probably would have been suspended for four games and he'd be back on the field. But because this has become a political issue, all of a sudden the commissioner has lost his stomach for it."

He said rape. Context doesn't matter. He said rape so it's time for us to villify this pagan bastard. There's only one problem with that...he's right.

I honestly have no idea what type of suspension he'd get and I won't speculate, but Michael Vick the criminal would be better off if he was accused of rape. This shouldn't be up for debate. These dogs have become more sympathetic figures than Katelyn Faber or Desiree Washington ever were in the eye of the public. As a matter of fact a large portion of the public still see these woman as a couple of whores who put themselves in bad situations. With the dogs, there's no fuzzy line between victim and accuser. There's nothing to justify. If you try, you come out looking like a fool.

Most people don't care that Tyson is a convicted rapist or that that Kobe is an accused rapist. Hell, for that matter, nobody cares that Ray Lewis stabbed a couple guys to death. Time has a funny way of making those things disappear. Convicted or not...Vick will never live this down.

Therein lies the problem with us being so selective about our moral indignation. Sometimes people will say things you don't want to hear...but it doesn't mean they're wrong.

Comments

[Assman]

I dunno. This is another one of those context things.

If the guy said Mike Vick would have "gotten a shorter suspension if he raped a woman," it would sound differently than saying he'd be "better off raping a woman."

Saying someone is "better off raping" makes it sound like raping is, in some context, not a bad thing or at least a less bad thing than something else.

I know, I know... it's petty. But it's like saying "Hitler should have just shot a few Jews in the face and it would have been better." True? Sure. But you don't want to read that shit.

[Art Vandelay]

Assman, I agree that he shouldn't have said it but not because it's offensive or he's wrong but because people will hear that word and automatically conclude that it's offensive wihtout putting a second of thought into it. If he has a job where he interacts with the public, he should be more aware of that if he wants to avoid public apologies and things of that nature.

[Art Vandelay]

On a completely unrelated note, the White Sox and Yankees both just scored 8 runs in the second inning.

[Craig]

Not long after the Tyson-Holyfield ear biting debacle, Bobcat Goldwaith had a bit in his stand-up about how Tyson raped someone and we were all ok with it, but he bit someone's ear and we were outraged and thought he should never fight again.

Is there something wrong with the world when Bobcat was right then and still right 10 or so years later?

[bluehorseshoe]

Well, that's what you gotta understand about WASPs - love animals, cant stand people...

[Schmoopie]

The guy's point is absolutely valid. You don't even have to be a radical feminist to recognize the truth in what he said. In a society that is beholden to the patriarchal power model, yes, women are worthless. How many rapists are (1) never caught, (2) caught, but not charged, (3) charged, but not convicted, (4) convicted, but not given a long sentence, or (5) given a longish sentence, but released early?

Athletes are supposed to be studs, they're supposed to "get the girl." The matter of whether she might not have consented is minor.

Mind you, I'm not saying that it's a good thing (it sure as hell isn't), but can anyone deny that it's true? Disregard for women's bodily autonomy is pervasive in this culture. That scumbag Bill O'Reilly thinks he's leading a culture war for the forces of good, but really, if he wants to improve society, he could start by atoning for the whole falafal incident and the stupid, sexist things he's said since then.

Sorry, I know nobody was talking about O'Reilly. But is it ever wrong to slam him?

[DFS]

someone else said he would have gotten less flack if he had arranged one of those homeless guy fights to the death

[Assman]

If he would have been traded to Baltimore to play linebacker and stabbed two people to death, he might be considered a first ballot hall of famer.

(Sorry, Art. Had to go there.)

Maybe instead of electrocuting dogs, he should have jumped over a fence at his ex-wife's house and slit her throat while she was talking to her friend from a local restaurant.

Hmm... what else....

Oh, maybe he should have covered up some information so the president's friends could get some oil. That seems to be a scot-free offense.

Gotta love it.

[randi]

Instead of raping women or fighting dogs, perhaps he should have just murdered his ex-wife and mother of his children and her boyfriend and then fled in a white Bronco.
Or something..

[Art Vandelay]

If he would have been traded to Baltimore to play linebacker and stabbed two people to death, he might be considered a first ballot hall of famer.

(Sorry, Art. Had to go there.)

You lost me on this. He plays for Baltimore and he's definitely considered a first ballot HoF'er. What am I missing?

[sancarloskid]

Jeebus, when did this get so heavy hereabouts?

But sherioushly folks, I think the issue with those other women was that there was an issue of whether or not Kobe/Tyson were really guilty (not for me, but for a lotta folks.) No question in most folks' minds that Vick was involved with some hateful stuff on the dogs.

[Kramer]

Assman: In the words of Chris Rock, the gentleman philosopher, "If some woman is driving around in my car, with another man and flaunting their sexual exploits in my face. . I am not SAYING HE SHOULD HAVE KILLED HER, BUT I UNDERSTAND"

On the current issue, there is some legitimacy to the claim that Des'ree Washington, Kobe's Ho and them Duke girls, reagardless of what did or did not happen, chose to be where they were. Des'ree decided to check out the Champ's limo at 3AM. Kobe's Ho consented to vaginal, but not anal sex.

The Duke Case is unique because to many it represented a similar power dynamic to the Vick case. Here powerless, poor black women were allegedly exploited and raped by wealthy white men. In the Vick scenario, dogs have been exploited and ironically raped by wealthy and redneck black men.

I make no excuses for Michael Vick. I am digusted. But were he charged with rape, he'd be playing and at camp, just as Kobe was during his fiasco.

[Puddy]

I think the problem is that the reporter was a bit out of his element. Speaking off the cuff is not the same as being able to be write semi-literately (anyone who has been witness to the reporters on ESPN who need to talk can agree).

If the reporter had framed this "If Mick Vick were accused of rape" instead of "better off raping" then this uproar never happens. If the reporter was writing this piece, wither he or an editor says "we need to frame this better." As it were, foot in mouth.

The term "better off raping" is NEVER valid, no matter what the intent behind it is. You can rationalize it and say what the reporter meant, but that's not what he said. Would he have a different punishment? Probably, because the NFL and society is familiar with rape.

The mere fact that dogfighting exists largely in the underground makes it taboo, and hence people respond with more outcry than resignation. I find dogfighting as abhorrent as the next person, but never would I say that such a crime is even close to rape.

[jackie]

"I make no excuses for Michael Vick. I am digusted. But were he charged with rape, he'd be playing and at camp, just as Kobe was during his fiasco."

What if he was charged with raping a dog?

"The Duke Case is unique because to many it represented a similar power dynamic to the Vick case. Here powerless, poor black women were allegedly exploited and raped by wealthy white men. In the Vick scenario, dogs have been exploited and ironically raped by wealthy and redneck black men."

That's a plastic-man-like stretch right there. Comparing (1) strippers who are probably banking like 3 or 4 bills a night because of their assets and who voluntarily went home with some clowns in the hopes of banking some more, to (2) pit bulls being forced to fight, is crazy talk, regardless of whatever historical tripe one wants to spew in an effort to support.

[Kramer]

I was being facetious. Liberals would equate the strippers and pit bulls because strippers rented and are allegedly powerless to fight the power of a patriarchial caucasian social structure and have no voice. Just as pit bulls are bought and owned by these criminals.

I love animals and am glad that they are getting the attention. Still, there is a small part of me that says, maybe its not as bad since dogs are not human. Maybe its the novelty of the crime in the press, but it really is receiving more moral outrage than rape

[jackie]

Got it.

Personally I'm considering starting a movement for Men Who Are Exploited By Strippers.

Who's down?

[Assman]

You lost me on this. He plays for Baltimore and he's definitely considered a first ballot HoF'er. What am I missing?

Re-stated:

If Mike Vick was traded to Baltimore...

Personally I'm considering starting a movement for Men Who Are Exploited By Strippers.

I'm for it. Can I claim mental anguish if I can't get that glitter lotion out of my shirts?

[Kramer]

I am your Rosa Parks.

[Jack Klompus]

"You don't even have to be a radical feminist to recognize the truth in what he said."

Likewise, you don't have to be 100% kookoo to be a scientologist, but it probably helps if you fancy the cocoa puffs to some extent.

"Athletes are supposed to be studs, they're supposed to "get the girl." The matter of whether she might not have consented is minor."

That's utterly ridiculous. The question of consent is everything. Do we never have false accusations of rape?

"Disregard for women's bodily autonomy is pervasive in this culture."

By men only?

[Orange, a.k.a. Mrs. Sokol (or Schmoopie)]

False accusations of rape are rare in comparison to true accusations of rape for which no criminal is ever brought to justice. My point was that jocks are supposed to be studs. There seems to be a huge presumption that any woman should be delighted by their attentions, and furthermore, that being delighted by their attentions = carte blanche for all sexual contact. But you know what? Even a woman with stars in her eyes can change her mind about what she wants to do. Going to a hotel room does not mean she has given consent for anything.

I don't get what you mean by "By men only?" Women don't generally play grab-ass or grope other women. They don't leer at them or make catcalls on the street. They don't look at another woman and say, "I'd hit that." Remember that high-school track and field athlete whose picture got flung all over the internet and all sorts of men were writing about what they'd do to her? That was really a guy thing.

[Kramer]

Going anywhere after 12AM with Mike Tyson should be de facto consent. Can I get an AMEN.

[jackie]

AMEN!!!

HALLELUJAH!!!

[Art Vandelay]

The term "better off raping" is NEVER valid, no matter what the intent behind it is.

How did you feel about "If a rape's inevitable, you may as well lay back and enjoy it"?

[Assman]

I've been falsely accused of rape and almost brought up on charges. I've never raped anyone and gotten away with it. Right now, the score is 1 - 0, in favor of false accusations.

Which is not to say that there isn't a lot of unreported rape out there or that its not jacked up, but is more to say that its not just athletes out there deflecting these BS charges and they DO happen. It's not that rare. There are women who just want attention, or don't want to take responsibility for their actions, etc. who go around doing this shit.

And perceived stud or not, in a he said / she said argument, you objectively have to ask yourself why the hell a lady would willingly go to a guy's hotel room at 3 AM if she wasn't going to have sex with him. Victim or no victim, there really are two sides of the story here that deserve to be listened to. Maybe there's a rape, maybe there isn't.

I'm not going to go as far as saying that being in Tyson's limo in the middle of the night and talking dirty to him is de facto consent, but to paraphrase Dave Chappelle... it's pretty fucking confusing.

[Art Vandelay]

Assman, wow...that had to be a pretty surreal experience.

The stats around rape have always confused me. To my knowledge, I've never known anyone who was raped. Granted, that's not the type of thing one announces but if 1 out of 5 women are raped, how is that in 35 years, I've never encountered one that made it known. I'm talking thousands of woman.

[Itchy]

"Women don't generally play grab-ass or grope other women. They don't leer at them or make catcalls on the street. They don't look at another woman and say, "I'd hit that.""

They do in rednecked lesbian bars...

To my knowledge, I've never known anyone who was raped. Granted, that's not the type of thing one announces but if 1 out of 5 women are raped, how is that in 35 years, I've never encountered one that made it known.,

1 - it's not an easy thing to talk about
2 - if we're not reporting, there's a deeper reason why. One being, "I deserved it" or..."I'm not worthy of getting help" so...why talk about it with anyone... There's tons of different reasons that we come up with not to talk about it.

The problem with charging someone with rape is that in a lot of cases the woman's whole background is pulled up and inspected and she's made to feel as if she's on trial as well. A rape victim shouldn't have to go through that.

[Assman]

Assman, wow...that had to be a pretty surreal experience.

It sucked, but I didn't go to jail or anything, so I can't complain. Her story was pretty flimsy. My only loss was in the court of public opinion, when pretty much my entire school decided to stop speaking to me because, regardless of what the cops said, I was still a rapist.

Granted, that's not the type of thing one announces but if 1 out of 5 women are raped, how is that in 35 years, I've never encountered one that made it known.

I dunno. Just about every woman I've ever been close to has been raped, so its definitely happening. It's just a delicate thing to make a legal issue of because there's so much more involved than just the act.

[Steve H.]

How reliable is that 1 of 5 number? More or less reliable than the "fact" that emergency room admissions for domestic violence increase dramatically on Super Bowl Sunday?

[Art Vandelay]

Well, it's not too reliable because like 48% of these rapes are unreported and that's a number that you really have to wonder how they came up with.

[Orange, a.k.a. Mrs. Sokol (or Schmoopie)]

How about this as a general guideline for consent: If the woman doesn't explicitly say and demonstrate that she is totally up for sex, then she's not consenting. How big a loser does a guy have to be to want to have sex with a woman who doesn't really want him? Is pity sex or coercive sex so glorious that it doesn't matter to you if the woman really doesn't want to sleep with you?

In college, I went to guys' rooms plenty. I was willing to make out, sure, but I wasn't about to have sex. Sometimes they were fine with that, and sometimes they were pissed off. I was really lucky in that none of them forced the issue, and I'm proud of myself that I was strong enough to hold my ground. If just one of them had opted for physical force, though, holding my ground wouldn't have meant a damn thing, and I would have been another rape statistic.

Speaking of rape statistics, Art, they get those statistics by polling women. If you ask a coworker, "Have you ever been raped?" she's hardly going to tell you about it. If a researcher asks a woman confidentially, "Have you ever had sex against your will?" they're going to get some good data. (Similar with abortion--you know how many of your coworkers and relatives have had abortions? You probably haven't heard about many, but it's about a third of them.)

[jackie]

I know tons of girls who have had abortions.

I also know a fair amount of girls who have been "date raped."

I don't know any girls who have been raped by a random dude.

[MM]

The statement was shocking because it provoked the all too familiar association of black men as rapists ... still alive and well today. So of course it's better to oblige the black man = oversexed/ testerone raging rapist -stereotype, because hey, tell us something we don't already know! But a "dog-killer"? Now there's a new low we never thought even the oversexed/testosterone-raging-rapist black man could sink to. DISGUST. UGGGH.
Yes, the SI author makes a valid point, but bristles some major nerves and arteries along the way; None of which he seems adequately prepared to navigate in consequence.

[angry]

That's because those dogs aren't who-wahs.

Just sayin'

[Jack Klompus]

"False accusations of rape are rare in comparison to true accusations of rape for which no criminal is ever brought to justice."

Rare in comparison? How in the hell would you know that? It's widely ageed upon that both all rape statistics are unreliable. That is due to a combination or inconsistent definitions of consent, underreporting of incidents out of fear/shame, and false accusations.

[Orange, a.k.a. Mrs. Sokol (or Schmoopie)]

Jackie, I'm willing to wager that far more women are raped by acquaintances than by strangers, which would account for why you've heard more such stories among the women you know. (Similarly, far more children are molested or kidnapped by people they know than by strangers—and yet people's fears of "stranger danger" are stronger. And plane crashes kill far fewer people than car crashes, but hardly anyone's afraid to get in a car. Hey, nobody ever said that fears are rational.)

Jack K., just how rampant are false accusations of rape? I fail to see that there is some sort of national crisis in which women are on a tear claiming to have been raped when they weren't. Perspective?

[jackie]

"just how rampant are false accusations of rape?"

I personally know 4 different dudes falsely accused of rape. Happens to be that all 4 are black and all 4 girls were white. Of course, these things happen regardless of race, but I do find that interesting.

[Jack Klompus]

"Jack K., just how rampant are false accusations of rape? I fail to see that there is some sort of national crisis in which women are on a tear claiming to have been raped when they weren't. Perspective?"

I didn't say there was a national crisis. But "rare in comparison" stinks of that age-old feminist handbook stat -- that "only" 2% of all reported rapes turn out to be false accusations (which is bullshit). Furthermore, "falsely accused" doesn't only apply to women lying about being raped. It also applies to cases wherein a rape actually occurred but suspects were misidentified and/or wrongly convicted. Even if DNA evidence eventually exonerates them, were they still not victims of false accusation? Finally, what percentage would qualify, in your opinion, as a problem? Consider the damage false accusations do to legitimate rape cases. Without false accusations, there'd be little precedent for digging up the accuser's sexual or psychological background -- the main reason why so many woman refrain from reporting rapes at all. Not to mention how much it denigrates those who are true victims of such a horrible crime. Given that perspective, I believe even 1 false accusation is too many.