With the Michael Vick indictment coming down, the cries of how vicious and inhumane pit bull fighting is have pretty much reached a fever pitch. Folks are all up in arms over the things Vick and his people are alleged to have done. Now personally, I think anyone who is drowning, strangling, hanging, shooting or electrocuting dogs for losing a fight should be exposed to repeated sodomization by DaveinNYC's pack of deranged wild goats, but that said, I have a very hard time buying the "public outrage," when most people really don't give a shit that Jim Billy Bob and his boys regularly go around killing animals for sport -- just for shits, giggles and heads-on-walls and not even eating the meat. You can give me the one is "legal" and the other is "illegal" business all you want -- and I simply reply with "slavery was legal, that does not make it right" -- but I'm gonna have to hear something better to convince me that this "public outrage" isn't a bit contrived considering that I don't recall hearing the masses getting all worked up about putting wild animals in confined surroundings, hunting them with loaded weapons and then going on like a waste of space douchebag that you've somehow proved yourself to be the better being.
I guess my point is that I'm just not buying what most people are selling in the pissed off department on this one. Just seems like most folks are doing the typical sheep routine and acting all worked up, because that's what's expected, not because that's what they really believe.
As I understand it, sport hunting also helps maintain population control so some of these animals don't starve to death.
And a lot of sport hunters eat what they shoot, which seems like a lot less of a mindfuck than, say, catch and release fishing.
Dogfighting, for all I can tell, just seems to be like that Gladiator movie, except without Joaquin Phoenix. Painful for everyone involved.
Posted by: Assman | July 18, 2007 at 08:47 AM
"And a lot of sport hunters eat what they shoot..."
I have less of a problem with this. I used "sports hunting" hoping to get across that I meant just killing animals for "sport" and not eating 'em. Guess I did not to a good job, or I just misused the term. I will edit now.
Thanks.
Posted by: jackie | July 18, 2007 at 08:56 AM
Oh! Oh! Me! *waving hand wildly*
I scorn hunters even more than people involved in dog fighting. (And I don't like the ones who are taking a side of venison home from to eat any better than the ones who go on those rigged game hunts.)
I'll go to the zoo with my kid, but I feel a little guilty about it--I have a friend who will not go to the zoo because she objects to the institutionalized captivity of animals.
Posted by: Orange | July 18, 2007 at 09:06 AM
"Painful for everyone involved."
Except for the guy whose dog wins...who somehow thinks said victory means his dick is bigger than everyone elses'.
Posted by: Jackie | July 18, 2007 at 09:13 AM
I agree with you, Chiles re: the contrived outrage mob. People, for a number of reasons, take pleasure in successful people's problems. Maybe it makes them feel better about themselves. If it was Billy Bob doing the dog fighting, most people would pay no attention (and it wouldn't be news).
"I don't recall hearing the masses get all worked up about putting wild animals in confined surroundings, hunting them with loaded weapons and then going on like a waste of space douchebag that you proved yourself to be the better being."
As Assman correctly pointed out, hunting is useful in that it controls animal populations that would otherwise starve to death if left alone. More succintly, animals like deer are eating and fucking machines -- they will consume and multiply until there is no forage left for any of them (or other animals as well). On top of that, predators that you don't want in excess are controlled as well ((i.e., coyotes, rabid wolverines) Preserving animal species at the expense of some redneck entertainment is far more humane than sitting by idle and watching them all die.
Moreover, if dogfighting is entertaining to some folks, so be it. There are plenty of things besides dogfighting that people do for entertainment that also happen to be less than humane. But comparing it to hunting -- I don't think so.
Posted by: Jack Klompus | July 18, 2007 at 09:20 AM
That indictment pisses me off only because I was completely blind that such things went on. I mean, who drowns a dog? As to not be hypocritical, I don't like hunting either. I understand the benefits but it infuriates me a bit when people brag about the fact that they blew bambi's head off.
Aside from this, after reading through some of that indictment, I just can't see any way how Vick (or Ookie) doesn't get time and if Goodell wants to maintain credibility, he should suspend his ass for the season.
Posted by: Art Vandelay | July 18, 2007 at 09:39 AM
If Vick does go to prison, does anyone think the pretty much general knowledge that he has herpes will keep him safe?
Posted by: Jackie | July 18, 2007 at 09:44 AM
I'm sure the people doing the raping in prison might call Vick's Herpes and raise him an HIV. I hope his elusiveness helps in the joint.
Wow, the over under on which Vick will do more time in prison kicks into high gear. I think the Vick family can safely be described as athletically talented ass clowns.
Posted by: M. Butler | July 18, 2007 at 09:50 AM
I scorn hunters even more than people involved in dog fighting. (And I don't like the ones who are taking a side of venison home from to eat any better than the ones who go on those rigged game hunts.)
This kinda pissed me off, I gotta be honest. How can you scorn hunters more than dog fighers? I think I need to know this.
I'm not really down with the whole "let's go out into the woods and kill deer for fun" way of life but, yes there is a but, it is necessary to an extent for reasons already highlighted. And sure, I don't know all of the hunters in the world so I can only speak on the ones I do. They didn't torture the deer. They didn't make the deer attack one another til one was dead or injured. If they shot them and they didn't die, they tracked them, found them, finished them off. Sure, the deer suffered in the meantime but the hunters were being as humane as possible while doing the hunting. Yes, yes...I know. Humane and killing. But that's what hunting is. And most of the people I know that hunted also ate what they killed. So, how is that different than me eating a steak? Or a burger?
BUT...dogs are companion animals. They are domesticated. They live with people. They trust humans. Dog fighting is horrible. I don't care who's involved. I don't care if it's Vick or Billy Bob. It's wrong. It's wrong to the dogs you are fighting. It's wrong to the people who's pets are stolen to use as bait dogs. It's wrong to the dogs "adopted" from the shelters to use as bait dogs. It's barbaric. It's....horrific! I cannot imagine not being worked up over this.
And yes, I also get this worked up over the hunting of wild animals in confined areas. Or people feeding deer in their yard year round just so they can shoot 'em when the calendar says it's OK to. You just killed your own pet in my eyes. But for real, actual hunting to be not as scornful to someone as dog fighting just really confuses me. No comparison here. None.
Posted by: Itchy | July 18, 2007 at 10:24 AM
BUT...dogs are companion animals. They are domesticated. They live with people. They trust humans.
I'm not condoning or trying to justify any of this but let's consider the breed.
We're not dealing with Lassie, here.
Posted by: Art Vandelay | July 18, 2007 at 10:55 AM
I'm not condoning or trying to justify any of this but let's consider the breed.
We're not dealing with Lassie, here.
The article you linked to just raises another issues, though. Responsible breeding and responsible ownership. Any dog, with poor breeding or training can kill/attack/injure. If you go here you'll see a listing of fatalities and the breeds they are attributed to. A West Highland White Terrier is on that list. Most people wouldn't dream of vilifying a Westie because they are so cute and fluffy. In the wrong hands any dog can kill. So, it's not really fair to bring that up in an anti-dog fighting argument. Even if you stipulate that you are not condoning it. Because most people that are for breed specific bans will ignore that statement and go right for the "well it just goes to show that it's those damn pit bulls and that's just what they do."
And before anyone attacks me for not commenting on how horrific that news story was, I'll point out that yes I do have a heart. Any dog that attacks to the point of death any person should be put down. No questions asked.
Posted by: Itchy | July 18, 2007 at 11:11 AM
I'm sure the people doing the raping in prison might call Vick's Herpes and raise him an HIV. I hope his elusiveness helps in the joint.
Excellent point. Does he get to take his offensive line with him? I get the feeling the sentence "Michael Vick got hit with three sacks today," is going to take ona new meaning.
I used "sports hunting" hoping to get across that I meant just killing animals for "sport" and not eating 'em.
I once knew a guy who used to shoot turtles just to hear the sound of their shells cracking. That guy needs guidance. And a few sacks.
People, for a number of reasons, take pleasure in successful people's problems.
Unless they're beloved successful people. Then we just pretend that its somehow not their fault.
Posted by: Assman | July 18, 2007 at 12:00 PM
As a dog owner, I think dog fighting is horrible.
To quote Jules, "Dog's got personality; personality goes a long way.".
I haven't ever had a deer or moose snuggle up on the couch with me, I don't see people hunting dogs, horses, cats, or any other domesticated animal, for those animals too stupid to evolve and make friends with man...well, fuck em, they're dinner.
Oh, and Itchy, good argument, I know some amazing pit bulls, and I think my mutt has some pit in him too.
Posted by: Babu | July 18, 2007 at 12:01 PM
Two more and I'm done:
and if Goodell wants to maintain credibility, he should suspend his ass for the season.
To say the least. Even with that asinine repeat offender clause that doesn't require a conviction, Vick still has the weed water bottle incident against him. That Matt Schaub trade doesn't look so good now, does it?
And I don't like the ones who are taking a side of venison home from to eat any better than the ones who go on those rigged game hunts.
Why not? Hunting weakened or overpopulated animals and taking them home to feed the family is as natural as nature gets. That's what lions do and its how our ecosystem thrives. It's more natural than growing animals on farms, I'd say.
Posted by: Assman | July 18, 2007 at 12:13 PM
What we need to do is get Marcus Vick. That way they can rotate as the starting ATL quarterback as they come in and out of prison.
Reporter "When Mike's next start?"
Coach "2 years. 6 months with good behavior."
Posted by: M. Butler | July 18, 2007 at 12:58 PM
Also, all the Vick fans can keep their shirts if we pick up Marcus and he just takes over the #7 spot.
Posted by: M. Butler | July 18, 2007 at 12:59 PM
Any dog, with poor breeding or training can kill/attack/injure.
I suppose, Itchy. Although there are breeds incapable of doing any damage. I guess (I think) the difference is that pitbulls are violent by nature and can be trained to be domesticated but there's always that nervousness that they're gonna lose it. This is what makes them less sympathetic if you will to me. It's like that joke about people being upset about the dolphins getting caught in the tuna nets and nobody caring about the tuna. I can't justify it.
This would be a bigger story if were talking about Golden Retrievers, right?
Posted by: Art Vandelay | July 18, 2007 at 01:20 PM
"That Matt Schaub trade doesn't look so good now, does it?"
How about the essential Tomlinson, Brees, Merriman one?
Posted by: jackie | July 18, 2007 at 01:46 PM
"I'm sure the people doing the raping in prison might call Vick's Herpes and raise him an HIV.
Outstanding.
Posted by: jackie | July 18, 2007 at 01:47 PM
Although there are breeds incapable of doing any damage.
I'm not familiar with these breeds. Most breeds I'm familiar with do have teeth...
that pitbulls are violent by nature and can be trained to be domesticated but there's always that nervousness that they're gonna lose it.
That's the general reputation of the "pit bull" that is not correct. If you have a poorly bred pit with a known violent temperament, then yes...the puppies will also have a good chance of also being violent. But that is not the natural temperament of a "pit" (which is a generic term, by the way, and most dogs identified as pits are usually a mixed breed).
This would be a bigger story if were talking about Golden Retrievers, right?
It would be more surprising to some people based on the usual temperament of a Golden as being sweet and gentle, yes. But they are still dogs and things can, and will, happen.
There is some discussion out there that stories about breeds other than "pits" fatally attacking people being buried by the media to keep the focus on pits = evil. If a dog has attacked and killed someone but is a known pit/lab mix, it is alleged that it will only be revealed that the dog was a pit. I can't speak on the validity of these claims.
Posted by: Itchy | July 18, 2007 at 02:11 PM
Early Norm McDonald Comedy
- Norm MacDonald hilariously explains why he would buy a "wiener dog" and why he would not buy a Doberman or a pit bull.
http://www.encyclomedia.com/video-early_norm_mcdonald_comedy.html
Posted by: M. Butler | July 18, 2007 at 02:19 PM
I'm not familiar with these breeds. Most breeds I'm familiar with do have teeth...
Cats have teeth too. We're not worried about them mauling anyone.
Know what we should be afraid of? Emu. Those things are fucking nasty.
Yeah, I have no documentation to support my bias against the pitbull and it's probably eassier to argue the other way but it's just there. I suppose that's canine discrimination and I'm part of the problem but so be it.
Again, none of this makes this mess with Vick any less reprehensible.
Posted by: Art Vandelay | July 18, 2007 at 02:47 PM
By the way, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the conspiracy theories about the media villifying pitbulls originate mostly from pitbull owners.
Posted by: Art Vandelay | July 18, 2007 at 02:58 PM
Well, assman, I'm no fan of the institutionalized warehousing of animals for meat, either...
I do not trust pit bulls. Yes, they can be raised by responsible people, but they still have jaws with deadly power, and they're still animals with natural impulses, and I don't want 'em living on my block.
Posted by: Orange | July 18, 2007 at 03:19 PM
"I do not trust pit bulls. Yes, they can be raised by responsible people, but they still have jaws with deadly power, and they're still animals with natural impulses, and I don't want 'em living on my block."
Wow Orange, you're full of scorn and distrust. Hypothetically if you had to choose one to live on your block, which would it be: a hunter or a pitbull? 30 seconds. Go.
Posted by: Jack Klompus | July 18, 2007 at 04:07 PM
I completely and totally trust pitbulls, it's the people who raised 'em that I'm worried about.
Main reasons you hear so much about pitbull attacks are:
1)There are more of them than almost any other breed in the country.
Back when I was a single girl living alone in the country, I owned a Fila Brasiliero and I can say with no reservation that he was the most dangerous dog I've ever seen. He would have quite cheerfully killed anyone who happened to wander in and that is the nature of the breed. I would say they are many, many times more dangerous than pits but since they're rare, nobody talks about them. I loved my dog but when I moved back into civilization, I took him in and had him put down. No way could I have him with neighbors less than a mile away.
2)When pits DO bite, they tend to do more damage than other breeds do. (Jaw strength and the fact they were selectively bred to do maximum damage.)
3) A great number (the majority?) of pit owners are irresponsible assholes who WANT their dog to be a bad ass.
Interesting thing about fighting pits, the "professional" dog fighters will typically kill any pit that tries to attack a human. They are supposed to be dog-aggressive only and it can cause owners a lot of trouble if their dog bites handlers and/or spectators (especially when most of the spectators are armed).
Posted by: lattalayne | July 18, 2007 at 04:32 PM
Cats have teeth too. We're not worried about them mauling anyone.
I wouldn't leave a cat alone in a room with a child any more than I would leave a dog alone in a room with a child. Any dog. Any cat. Any child. Because shit happens, ya know?
By the way, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the conspiracy theories about the media villifying pitbulls originate mostly from pitbull owners.
You could be right there, mostly. But, since I'm also involved in a few non breed specific groups I have seen the argument made there. But no facts. I'll admit that.
Well, assman, I'm no fan of the institutionalized warehousing of animals for meat, either...
I do not trust pit bulls. Yes, they can be raised by responsible people, but they still have jaws with deadly power, and they're still animals with natural impulses, and I don't want 'em living on my block.
I'm just gonna go ahead and assume that your apparent OKness with dog fighting then is because pit bulls are untrustworthy and therefore deserving of being brutally tortured and killed.
All dogs have strong jaws. Sure some more strong than others, but they all have the strength to do damage. Any dog can injure and/or kill a person.
And all dogs are animals with natural impulses. That's not just found in "pit bulls."
Posted by: Itchy | July 18, 2007 at 04:36 PM
"And all dogs are animals with natural impulses. That's not just found in "pit bulls."
Right on. Like all living creatures, some are just hard-wired for shenanigans.
"Any dog can injure and/or kill a person."
I don't know, I have a difficult time picturing a Scottie killing a human over 2 feet tall. Unless he dislodges a ladder or pulls on a rope with an anvil tied to it. I suppose they can be very malicious sometimes.
Posted by: Jack Klompus | July 18, 2007 at 04:57 PM
Klompus, I'll take the hunter neighbor over the pit bull. The hunter's teeth aren't as sharp.
Itchy, chill. I am not OK with dog-fighting. I think people involved in dog-fighting are the scum of the earth. I just also loathe hunting. And sorry, I'm one of the people who will never back down on opposing pit bulls, no matter how many bloody cocker spaniel maulings I hear about. The Chicago Tribune ran a multi-part series about a year ago about a pair of pit bulls—nice dogs! Trained well! Not connected to dog-fighting! Never trained to fight!—who attacked some neighbor kids even though the kids had been in the house and liked the dogs. (And I think the owner came out to cover the child with his own body, and this did not deter his dogs.) The sheer strength of pit bulls makes them ill-suited to domestic life. One of these dogs continued attacking after a cop had shot it. That is too much strength and stamina for a housepet. Oh—the article was written about a year after the attack, so we got to hear about the critical care unit, the extensive surgery, the lengthy rehabilitation, the continuing disability the child has as a result of the dog attack.
Also: Yes, let's get Michael Vick into a courtroom for his crimes and cruelty to animals.
Posted by: Orange | July 18, 2007 at 05:40 PM
The sheer strength of pit bulls makes them ill-suited to domestic life. One of these dogs continued attacking after a cop had shot it. That is too much strength and stamina for a housepet.
But that can happen with any large dog. German Shepherds, Akitas, etc. If provoked, they can kick some ass.
I admit that the breeding that people have done to make pit bulls as strong as they are was silly, but the temperment of the animal comes from its personality and its training. It's not really fair to say the animal is dangerous because of its parentage and historical breeding.
By the same logic, one could argue that they don't want Samoans living in their neighborhood because they tend to be bigger than the average person and a few have violent temperaments. Maybe the guy is big and menacing, and sure, if provoked, he could probably tear someone apart, but is it fair to say he can't live near you for that reason? Same can be said about NFL-sized black men. A few kick ass, and the rest probably could if they wanted to. Should they be disallowed to walk the streets?
I know pit bulls are poetntial killers and I know they're animals and I know they're scary, blah blah blah, but they're not as different or as explosive as they're made out to be. They're the same as any other dog of that size.
Posted by: Assman | July 18, 2007 at 06:03 PM
"I'll take the hunter neighbor over the pit bull. The hunter's teeth aren't as sharp."
Thats interesting, as way more children are harmed by guns in their own and at friends homes than are attacked by dogs every year. I think that hot tubs are even slightly more dangerous than guns though if you look at the numbers.
Posted by: Babu | July 18, 2007 at 06:05 PM
"By the same logic, one could argue that they don't want Samoans living in their neighborhood because they tend to be bigger than the average person and a few have violent temperaments."
I scorn Samoans. And I don't trust them, either. With their crazy tattoos and their slap dancing. You let one lousy Samoan into the neighborhood and before you know it, all Polynesian hell breaks loose. According to the numbers, more people are Snuka'd by Samoan neighbors every year than smothered by rabid wolverines. Well, no thank you. Not in my fuckin' neighborhood.
Posted by: Jack Klompus | July 18, 2007 at 06:29 PM
I don't know, I have a difficult time picturing a Scottie killing a human over 2 feet tall. Unless he dislodges a ladder or pulls on a rope with an anvil tied to it. I suppose they can be very malicious sometimes.
After skimming through this report and seeing that a Beagle strangled a child with it's leash (page 3 - though it could also mean that an adult was tugging on the leash and not the dog, which, really is the more logical scenario...), I'd say anything is possible Klompus. That report breaks down the number of attacks and bites on children and adults. It seems that most dogs in existence are capable of at least a bite. Who knew?
Itchy, chill. I am not OK with dog-fighting. I think people involved in dog-fighting are the scum of the earth.
Good to hear. You didn't really make that clear, though. Your initial statement basically stated that you scorn hunters over dog fighting. I still find that statement amazing. Sorry...but I do.
Because with dog fighting, it's not just about the pits. It's about the bait dogs that are used as training material. Don't forget about them...
And sorry, I'm one of the people who will never back down on opposing pit bulls, no matter how many bloody cocker spaniel maulings I hear about.
This is very short sighted. You get rid of the pits and then what? The people who use them will move to Rotties. Then you ban them. They move to Dobes. And on and on and on until there are no dogs left? Slippery slope....
Posted by: Itchy | July 18, 2007 at 07:34 PM
This is somewhat on par with the media coming down on Britney Spears for buying a $3K Yorkie. Who really gives a shit? Are puppy mills impossible to shut down? Yes, Britney's a mess. But she's a rich mess and frankly if she wants to spend her money on a dog, let her. Fucking people.
Sorry... did that have anything to do with your post or did I just go off on my own tangent?
Posted by: randi | July 18, 2007 at 07:52 PM
more people are Snuka'd by Samoan neighbors every year...
Killing me....
Posted by: Assman | July 18, 2007 at 08:20 PM
Hey M. Butler: You Got Props.
Posted by: jackie | July 18, 2007 at 11:09 PM
I would much rather have Troy Polamalu living next door to me than a pitbull. That's all I'm sayin,
Posted by: Art Vandelay | July 18, 2007 at 11:16 PM
A Letter From Michael Vick's Dead Brother: The Mighty MJD takes it to a whole 'nother level.
Posted by: jackie | July 19, 2007 at 12:05 AM
Tooth Vick? TOOTH VICK?
I am in awe of the MJD right now. Amazing.
Posted by: cozmo | July 19, 2007 at 10:16 AM
I would much rather have Troy Polamalu living next door to me than a pitbull. That's all I'm sayin
So, not a fan of Joey Porter?
Posted by: Assman | July 19, 2007 at 12:04 PM
whoever does this stuff should get thrown in jail or worse get the death penalty, and if its mike vick he should be thrown fron the nfl and thrown in jail for the rest of his measly little life and the things done to the dog should be done to him and all people that are invovled in dogfighting. Its not right and the people should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, its a living thing they are doing this crap to, so we should throw him in a cage the rest of his frickin life and see how he likes it, bet he will never hurt another living thing in his life. If i had it my way this would be delt with the full extent of my imagination, and it will be the worse thing he has ever had to undergo in his short little life
Posted by: | July 19, 2007 at 07:01 PM
Wha...Hey...Wait, did I redirected to the Chris Benoit thread? I'm getting a not rob vibe....
"whoever does this stuff should get thrown in jail or worse get the death penalty"
Not much for multiple options, are you?
"and if its mike vick"
It is.
"he should be thrown fron the nfl and thrown in jail for the rest of his measly little life"
What's with all the throwing? Not exactly 'rain on your wedding day' but I guess that's kinda ironic since he's more of a running QB. That would take some manpower, though. Would you settle for a brisk shove instead?
"and the things done to the dog should be done to him"
Maybe now is not the best time to break it to you -- but there was more than one dog. I'm just sayin'...
"If i had it my way this would be delt with the full extent of my imagination, and it will be the worse thing he has ever had to undergo in his short little life
"
Which seems to be limited thus far to throwing and fighting other dogs. You got anything else in the 'ol saw mill?
Posted by: Jack Klompus | July 19, 2007 at 09:33 PM
And all dogs are animals with natural impulses. That's not just found in "pit bulls."
Using quotations for a breed of dog is needless and stupid. Just stop.
Posted by: Matt | July 21, 2007 at 01:17 AM
Remember this rule of life people:
Never have a pet that can take you out.
That means no pit bulls, no 20' pythons, no grizzly bears, no penguins, and no mountain lions.
Posted by: Doug Goodland | July 22, 2007 at 04:10 PM
Using quotations for a breed of dog is needless and stupid. Just stop.
Depends. If you're trying to make the point that they're only nicknamed "pit bulls" colloquially, and that the breed is really the American Staffordshire Terrier (or Staffordshire Bull Terrier), you might be warranted.
Posted by: Assman | July 23, 2007 at 11:05 AM
"If you're trying to make the point that they're only nicknamed "pit bulls" colloquially, and that the breed is really the American Staffordshire Terrier (or Staffordshire Bull Terrier), you might be warranted."
Which would be unnecessary here at AofG, since almost all arguments are clear and concise.
Posted by: Jack Klompus | July 23, 2007 at 11:26 AM
It's Sad with so much going for him that MV needs to have a dog killing business. Is Vick just wired wrong like serial killers and others that can't figure out right from wrong? And what about all the other people involved? How can people watch this type of event without compassion for the dogs? It’s sad that some people will never be human they will forever be a sub-human. Where was MV’s humanity. Where was anyone’s humanity?
Posted by: LZ | July 23, 2007 at 04:59 PM
Is Vick just wired wrong like serial killers and others that can't figure out right from wrong?
Nah...I think he's just stupid.
Posted by: Art Vandelay | July 24, 2007 at 12:14 PM
Have you watched boxing; mixed martial arts, etc?
Posted by: M. Butler | July 24, 2007 at 12:41 PM
I think dogfighting is cool. It's a lot better than boxing, unless it's a bare fistfight in an alley of course. I've been to a few dogfights, and there's nothing like seeing vicious animals, frothing at the mouth, tearing each other apart in a pit. It is 100% real American entertainment.
Posted by: Wayne | July 28, 2007 at 11:50 PM